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Fuel gauge problems?

When my bike was new, I could predict to within 5-10 miles of empty.

Now, it's a crap shoot. You can't have them fix a problem under warranty if you can't duplicate the problem.

Not that I would, but I wonder if you can lemon law a bike? Lol
 
Loomis said:
When my bike was new, I could predict to within 5-10 miles of empty.

Now, it's a crap shoot. You can't have them fix a problem under warranty if you can't duplicate the problem.

Not that I would, but I wonder if you can lemon law a bike? Lol
Click to expand...

I'm not a legal expert, but my guess is MANY more things (more than in inaccurate gas gauge) would have to be wrong.
 
I am a programmer of industrial controls and small microprocessors, and i am here to tell you it would have cost Honda not one cent or yen or whatever to make this gas gauge "linear' - so that each bar reports very nearly the same amount of gas in the tank (when the bike is sitting level). The electronic instrument panel is microprocessor controlled, so it is just a matter of the proper software. But it will NEVER show the same mileage per bar, because this bike more than any other I have owned gets RADICALLY poorer gas mileage when running slow in the lower gears than when cruising in top gear.

But that is not my complaint. As many others here have said, you get used to the nonlinearity, which was common before the days of electronic instrument panels for the reasons mentioned here - odd size and shape of the tank.

NO, my complaint is about the action of the bottom bar. For all of the other bars, when the bar above goes out you ride for some distance (typically a bit more than 50 miles for the upper ones and a bit less for the lower ones), and then that bar goes out. But then you get to the second bar. After you ride through the second bar any sensible person would expect that you ride some further distance on the bottom bar before it goes out to expose the little red blinky light. That is how it SHOULD have been programmed. But instead, as soon as the second bar goes out the last bar goes out too and suddenly you are in the reserve. You have gone instantly from two bars showing to none. THIS IS TOTALLY WRONG and it is nothing more than a programming error. It would cost maybe an hour at most and probably more like five minutes of the programmer's time to make it right, and not a penny more for hardware or hardware changes. SHAME on Honda for letting this slip through.(BY the way - not sure but I think the redlight is back there blinking all the time - it is only hidden by the bottom bar. There is a good cost saving reason for doing this, but that affects the discussion above not at all.)

That being said, yes I always use one of the trip counters as a backup gas gauge. (I figure that is why they gave you two of them.) But still if they have to save money somewhere, I would MUCH prefer to just have the old manual reserve valve and no gas gauge at all. If it fails after 30 years or so you just order a repair kit for $5 or maybe even a whole new valve for $25 and put it on yourself. I make this electronic stuff for a living and can almost guarantee you that this expensive electronic dashboard WILL be one of the first parts of a well maintained motorcycle to fail and when it does you will not fix it yourself with a $25 part. If it follows the usual pattern of electronic components, it will last long enough that by the time it fails the components inside will no longer be available and of course Honda will not stockpile any inventory against that possibility occurring when these machines are 10-20-or 30 years old. The sensor itself can be replaced, but inside the dashboard there are no user or even factory servicable parts. When any part of it quits (and it surely will) you replace the whole works - speedometer, gas guage, trip meters, clock, LCD display -- and it will cost $hundreds if you can even get the replacement assembly by then. So if you are planning to keep this bike over the long haul it is probably not a bad idea to just buy a spare dashboard from the junk yard in a few years when these start showing up there.

My theory is that a few unskilled riders over the years (maybe only a few more than have been struck by lightning while riding) have had accidents involving getting distracted while fiddling around with the reserve valve because they didn't take the time to learn to find it by feel and learn which way is reserve and which way is off BEFORE they ran out of gas going down the road. The present abundance of personal injury attorneys and the vain attempt to make everyting idiot proof and harmless leads them to replace the simple, reliable and inexpensive reserve valve with a costly piece of electronic gadgetry that still doesn't work all that well.
 
Last edited:
Loomis said:
When my bike was new, I could predict to within 5-10 miles of empty.

Now, it's a crap shoot. You can't have them fix a problem under warranty if you can't duplicate the problem.

Not that I would, but I wonder if you can lemon law a bike? Lol
Click to expand...

In Florida you can definitely Lemon Law any kind of motor vehicle and even things like major appliances that cost more than several hundred dollars. There is not a heavy burden of proof, and it doesn't even have to be argued whether it is a 'major' defect or not.

But you only have (I think it is ) two weeks to decide.

All states are different
 
KGround said:
The present abundance of personal injury attorneys and the vain attempt to make everyting idiot proof and harmless leads them to replace the simple, reliable and inexpensive reserve valve with a costly piece of electronic gadgetry that still doesn't work all that well.
Click to expand...

Seems strange for a µ-processor programmer to have this view.

[video=youtube;gNe1w6Sk4pE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNe1w6Sk4pE[/video]
 
KGround said:
I am a programmer of industrial controls and small microprocessors, and i am here to tell you it would have cost Honda not one cent or yen or whatever to make this gas gauge "linear' - so that each bar reports very nearly the same amount of gas in the tank (when the bike is sitting level). The electronic instrument panel is microprocessor controlled, so it is just a matter of the proper software. But it will NEVER show the same mileage per bar, because this bike more than any other I have owned gets RADICALLY poorer gas mileage when running slow in the lower gears than when cruising in top gear.

But that is not my complaint. As many others here have said, you get used to the nonlinearity, which was common before the days of electronic instrument panels for the reasons mentioned here - odd size and shape of the tank.

NO, my complaint is about the action of the bottom bar. For all of the other bars, when the bar above goes out you ride for some distance (typically a bit more than 50 miles for the upper ones and a bit less for the lower ones), and then that bar goes out. But then you get to the second bar. After you ride through the second bar any sensible person would expect that you ride some further distance on the bottom bar before it goes out to expose the little red blinky light. That is how it SHOULD have been programmed. But instead, as soon as the second bar goes out the last bar goes out too and suddenly you are in the reserve. You have gone instantly from two bars showing to none. THIS IS TOTALLY WRONG and it is nothing more than a programming error. It would cost maybe an hour at most and probably more like five minutes of the programmer's time to make it right, and not a penny more for hardware or hardware changes. SHAME on Honda for letting this slip through.(BY the way - not sure but I think the redlight is back there blinking all the time - it is only hidden by the bottom bar. There is a good cost saving reason for doing this, but that affects the discussion above not at all.)

That being said, yes I always use one of the trip counters as a backup gas gauge. (I figure that is why they gave you two of them.) But still if they have to save money somewhere, I would MUCH prefer to just have the old manual reserve valve and no gas gauge at all. If it fails after 30 years or so you just order a repair kit for $5 or maybe even a whole new valve for $25 and put it on yourself. I make this electronic stuff for a living and can almost guarantee you that this expensive electronic dashboard WILL be one of the first parts of a well maintained motorcycle to fail and when it does you will not fix it yourself with a $25 part. If it follows the usual pattern of electronic components, it will last long enough that by the time it fails the components inside will no longer be available and of course Honda will not stockpile any inventory against that possibility occurring when these machines are 10-20-or 30 years old. The sensor itself can be replaced, but inside the dashboard there are no user or even factory servicable parts. When any part of it quits (and it surely will) you replace the whole works - speedometer, gas guage, trip meters, clock, LCD display -- and it will cost $hundreds if you can even get the replacement assembly by then. So if you are planning to keep this bike over the long haul it is probably not a bad idea to just buy a spare dashboard from the junk yard in a few years when these start showing up there.

My theory is that a few unskilled riders over the years (maybe only a few more than have been struck by lightning while riding) have had accidents involving getting distracted while fiddling around with the reserve valve because they didn't take the time to learn to find it by feel and learn which way is reserve and which way is off BEFORE they ran out of gas going down the road. The present abundance of personal injury attorneys and the vain attempt to make everyting idiot proof and harmless leads them to replace the simple, reliable and inexpensive reserve valve with a costly piece of electronic gadgetry that still doesn't work all that well.
Click to expand...

The designer's decided to show five steps of fuel level. They decided that when it showed only one bar, it should flash to attract your attention. They implemented a red/black flash by simply "painting" a red bar on the reflective background of the LCD display to avoid the cost of a full color display. That was their design for the fuel gauge. It makes some sense. That doesn't make it "TOTALLY WRONG". Sure, I would have preferred about 12 linear steps to the fuel display, but that's not what it is.

The old manual reserve fuel valves pretty much disappeared when fuel system design changed from gravity feed to electric fuel pumps. The reserve valves were not infallible. I once ran out of gas in the twisties only a few miles after switching to reserve. Leaning the bike left and ride kept sloshing the fuel to upper pickup screen, giving a false sense of just what the actual fuel level was.

Your pessimism about the instruments panel's reliability surprises me. Using that logic, you should probably pick up a spare engine control module, ABS module, and every other black box on the bike as well. My experience with automotive and motorcycle electronics has been very positive over the years. What Honda or other brand motorcycle instruments have you I had that were so bad you can predict their imminent failure with such certainty? I don't plan to stock pile gauges, expecting them to break.

Greg
 
Last edited:
670cc said:
Your pessimism about the instruments panel's reliability surprises me. My experience with automotive and motorcycle electronics has been very positive over the years. What other brand motorcycle instruments have you I had that were so bad you can predict their imminent failure with such certainty? I don't plan to stock pile gauges, expecting them to break.
Greg
Click to expand...

True, we will have to replace the whole electronics unit when/if it fails, but it seems like it could last a long time since it has no moving parts. As long as the sensors send it data, and it can process it and display it, it should work.

The electronics unit could be re-programmed? Hmmm.... is there a firmware update for this item?
 
The electronics unit could be re-programmed? Hmmm.... is there a firmware update for this item?[/B][/QUOTE]

Why yes there is. Instead of the last fuel guage bar immediately flashing black and red, after the update it flashes red and black. Sorry, just couldn't resist. :)

Bob
 
Mine has been pretty reliable as far as when I have about 180-190 miles on the trip odometer, I am going to see about 3.1 (+/- .1) gallons going back in. I would not push much past 200 miles without worrying about running dry.

I have been using 87 gas for a while now. I have not noticed any difference since I stopped with the 91.

The only peculiarity being that when the gas "gauge" gets down to the last flashing bar, after a bit of riding it will sometimes flip back up to 2 bars. But if I recall, that's been the case when I am riding up some freeway grade hills (as in, not climbing a mountain). It will flip between two bars and flashing the last bar as I ride along. That's enough to make you ache for a gas station on the horizon.

The odometer is the best gas gauge on the bike, IMHO.
 
StratTuner said:
The electronics unit could be re-programmed? Hmmm.... is there a firmware update for this item?
Click to expand...

It sure can be done but all these are proprietary info with very limited access. Projects like pgmfi.org, tuneecu.com, ecucontrol have been uncovering and unlocking the info access and control to owners and tuners. But it takes a long time and dedication, so you are probably better off programming your brain to accept the non-linear readings than to program the electronics :)
 
ray said:
so you are probably better off programming your brain to accept the non-linear readings than to program the electronics :)
Click to expand...

Or, you could brick a couple of $264 Combination meters trying to figure it out.

Remember: The pioneer is the guy with the arrow in his chest.
 
Sorry.......You guys need to fill your tanks. take a break and go riding..................it's a digital gas gauge, the bars flash as the fuel sloshes or change on steep grades and it flashes low when you get somewhere around 200 miles. If it's windy and your going fast, with a lot of weight it will come sooner than 200 miles................ "it ain't rocket surgery".............:rolleyes:

PS not stocking up a parts that may fail years or decades down the road. Remember the old low fuel lights that started to glow when therm-mister would warm as the fuel no longer cooled the sensor......some did not like that too.
 
showkey said:
PS not stocking up a parts that may fail years or decades down the road.
Click to expand...

Everybody has their own spares stocking strategy. I choose to stock "doomsday spares" for all my stuff in a couple of 40 ft. cargo containers lined with heavy duty shelves.. When I got out of airhead BMW's I made good money selling off some high value spares that I had purchased "right" and tucked away. On my current BMW, I keep critical spares boxed and ready to ship so that I can call my wife and tell her to "ship box number so-and-so next day to Timbucktu". I haven't had to do that yet for personal need, but I have bailed a couple of less well prepared friends out by shipping spares to get them going. Once a friend called and asked if I had a drive belt for a Polaris Ranger because the factory wanted two weeks to get one to him. "Yup. Got one. Send me yours when it comes in." I may well put back a combination meter in a few years when used spares become inexpensively available.
 
Beemerphile said:
Everybody has their own spares stocking strategy. I choose to stock "doomsday spares" for all my stuff in a couple of 40 ft. cargo containers lined with heavy duty shelves.. When I got out of airhead BMW's I made good money selling off some high value spares that I had purchased "right" and tucked away. On my current BMW, I keep critical spares boxed and ready to ship so that I can call my wife and tell her to "ship box number so-and-so next day to Timbucktu". I haven't had to do that yet for personal need, but I have bailed a couple of less well prepared friends out by shipping spares to get them going. Once a friend called and asked if I had a drive belt for a Polaris Ranger because the factory wanted two weeks to get one to him. "Yup. Got one. Send me yours when it comes in." I may well put back a combination meter in a few years when used spares become inexpensively available.
Click to expand...


Agree on your strategy............I too stocked up on some critical or hard to find parts for Transalp and CX500 Turbo when the bikes and later when the parts were discontinued...........we should be safe on NC parts for the near future. I am not sure my parts "stock" does as well as a good mutual fund as far as investment:D

Funny think about older parts, you can buy just about every part for a 20-40 year old CT70-90 as the after market filled that need.
 
Last edited:
showkey said:
Remember the old low fuel lights that started to glow when therm-mister would warm as the fuel no longer cooled the sensor
Click to expand...



I *loved* that feature on my Turbo!:D it was the best non-analogue fuel guage of any bike I've ever owned.

It would slowly begin to flicker for a few miles, then start faintly glowing for a few more miles, then eventually glow brightly in a big solid orange square. (I assume your Turbo is the same, of course?)

It never felt like I was riding along, and then BAM! on reserve! :eek:

It allowed me to psychologically set myself up for planning fuel stops... I'm the same with my alarm clock to get up in the morning, lol. I can't abide the shrill shrieking/blaring/jangling of an instant-on alarm! I'd be a nervous wreck, heehee. My alarm is a slow, progressive, starts-at-zero-volume and eventually gets louder, talk radio news station.
 
I'm going to take a stab at this.

In the old CB750, I ran till it ran out and just simply switched to reserve using a petcock or just filled it every 100 miles to be safe. Obviously, with the NC700X there is no such thing. From what I keep reading, the general consensus is once you hit the 200 mark, pretty much safe to say fill it. I will say that if you think your fuel gauge is off, report it to the dealer immediately and get it in. Now, I am not sure how the fuel gauge works on the NC, but I am assuming the float is attached to an electric fuel pump inside the tank. On a trailblazer, I know when the fuel gauge starts acting up (showing mis-readings) it's a good indication that the unit is failing, following a fuel pump failure. Not to say that this is the case with the NC, as I said I have no idea how it's setup just taking an educated guess.
 
n30r3l0ad3d said:
I'm going to take a stab at this.

In the old CB750, I ran till it ran out and just simply switched to reserve using a petcock or just filled it every 100 miles to be safe. Obviously, with the NC700X there is no such thing. From what I keep reading, the general consensus is once you hit the 200 mark, pretty much safe to say fill it. I will say that if you think your fuel gauge is off, report it to the dealer immediately and get it in. Now, I am not sure how the fuel gauge works on the NC, but I am assuming the float is attached to an electric fuel pump inside the tank. On a trailblazer, I know when the fuel gauge starts acting up (showing mis-readings) it's a good indication that the unit is failing, following a fuel pump failure. Not to say that this is the case with the NC, as I said I have no idea how it's setup just taking an educated guess.
Click to expand...

All I can say is. Since that ONE time that it lied to me back in February, it has never let me down since then, ever. It's been very consistent now. I'm not taking it to the dealer for one little mishap that has not been repeatable.
 
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