Diagnosing the leak

[L.B.S.]

Hey Strat- think of it this way maybe: the pump stays on the engine for now. The *cover* over the pump, is the part that comes off first. The cover is bolted to the pump, which is turn, bolted to the engine. ONLY THE COVER CAN POSSIBLY COME OFF FIRST, NOT THE COVER AND THE PUMP AT THE SAME TIME.

-Remove completely, the two bolts in the roughly 2:00 and the 8:00 oclock positions.
-Loosen ONLY, those two pesky bolts in the 12:00 and 6:00 positions behind the frame rails, out as far as they can, without them touching the frame, and that third centre bolt as much as wanted, or removed entirely.

Now the cover pulls out slightly, and then slides off, down and back towards the rear of the bike. You are simply removing and loosening bolts that hold the cover to the pump, not removing the pump. The cover may need healthy tapping on the front, from left to right as you face it, to get it off the pump body itself.

Only once the cover is off, can the pump come out.

 

[showkey]

^^^^^^ agree with LBS.........the cover comes off first. The engine itself does not need to moved, lossened or lowered.

The shop manual instructions are very detailed and specific, shows which bolts to remove in specific order. ......Time to read and reread the shop manual again step by step........LBS has it right.

If the shop manual can not be understood.......then it's time to call in reinforcements ( aka help).

 

[StratTuner]

^^^^^^ agree with LBS.........the cover comes off first. The engine itself does not need to moved, lossened or lowered.

The shop manual instructions are very detailed and specific, shows which bolts to remove in specific order. ......Time to read and reread the shop manual again step by step........LBS has it right.

If the shop manual can not be understood.......then it's time to call in reinforcements ( aka help).

No he doesn't have it right. I took the bolts off in exactly the order the manual says. I taped them to paper with packing tape and labeled each bolt with a Sharpie pen notation describing the page it came from and the order it went in.

The cover will not come off that problem bolt because that bolt goes THROUGH the cover. The cover doesn't even have threads for that bolt... the bolt passes through the entire pump and threads into the engine.

That bolt is simply too long to disengage the threads in the available space.

I'm reluctant to say that because in the book How to Win Friends and Influence People, Dale Carnegie's most important point is that one should NEVER insist on being "right" especially in a public setting. It accomplishes nothing and makes people unhappy.

Still, I will make a special effort to get the mechanic to describe how he gets that bolt off...IF he will tell me. We are not on as good terms as we once were.

I'll post that explanation here when/if I get it.

 

[L.B.S.]

Hey strat I would dearly love to be wrong if it spared you an ounce of the frustration I know you are going through...

Have you taken the cover off the new pump you bought? It's not one piece. There is the cover, (and hopefully the "missing" perimeter internal o-ring, + the plate gasket) and the pump itself. The water pump as it is, will not look like it does compared to the one on the bike, because it cannot be removed with the cover in place. If you are going by how bolts go through the new part in your hand, and try to apply that logic to the part to be removed, it will give you a false visualization of the removal process.

 

[Antarius]

I will take a peek at mine this weekend Strat, and see if I can figure out the solution for you. I'll dig into it Saturday night -- if that's not too long a wait. I'll drop ya a PM with the solution if/when I figure out what's happening.

 

[StratTuner]

Hey strat I would dearly love to be wrong if it spared you an ounce of the frustration I know you are going through...

Have you taken the cover off the new pump you bought? It's not one piece. There is the cover, (and hopefully the "missing" perimeter internal o-ring, + the plate gasket) and the pump itself. The water pump as it is, will not look like it does compared to the one on the bike, because it cannot be removed with the cover in place. If you are going by how bolts go through the new part in your hand, and try to apply that logic to the part to be removed, it will give you a false visualization of the removal process.

The O-ring and gasket aren't worth considering until the old pump comes off. When the pump comes off, it will be time to think about the O-ring and the gasket. As the pump will NOT come off, it's not time.

Yep. My logic is at fault. I'm sure that's it.

I got up thinking I might try to put it all back together so that I can spare myself the shame and expense of having a mechanic come out and cart the thing away.

As I have lost all confidence in my mechanical ability, this seems unwise. It would damage the engine to run without a cooling system, and I don't think I can put it all back.
It's too complicated for me.

 

[StratTuner]

putting it back together didn't go well either.

the coolant leaks out of the pump as fast as I can pour it in.

I wish I'd never started this. I have no business doing this kind of work.

 

[L.B.S.]

Auuuugh! No, Strat! I feel for you buddy.

Don't feel any shame in this! You are brave for trying something so far out of your comfort zone, I just feel so bad it's not worked out as hoped.

The whole reason for my mentioning the o-ring/gasket bit, and taking the cover off the pump, was to show you how the thing goes together, so it would help you visualize where you are going wrong with how you think it comes off the bike- IMHO if you have completely convinced yourself it can only come apart the one way, and that implies that logically, it *can't* come off in your mind, then that is the true hurdle to overcome, not the mechanical component.

Courage my friend, don't despair.

 

[StratTuner]

NO, it's the mechanical component. A bolt that will not back all the way out is holding the water pump there.
No one is taking that pump off until they deal with that bolt... not me, not a mechanic, not anyone.

 

[ld_rider]

I found this while using Google to search the forum....Not sure if this is helpful in any way....

Hmcp88
12th October 2013, 19:45
Well did the water pump tonight. Everything goes smooth when following the service manual procedure for removal. Only hitch with doing the pump was on the upper most screw. For the first time ever I got myself stuck with a gear wrench that butt up to the frame taking the screw off....that's a big bummer by the way lol. It's the flip it to reverse directions wrench so once it got stuck there was no turning back. Needless to say I have many scratched on the frame and had to scrap that now bent screw, but it could have been worse. I ran the bike until the fan came on to bleed the cooling system and haven't seen any leaks yet! Yay! Didn't notice anything unusual with the old pump but as long as the leak is no more I am happy.

Sadly, from the same thread :-(

My water pump is leaking on my NC. I started to take it off today, but the bolts that hold the pump in place will not come all the way out. At least one of them will get loose and be free of the threads, but the head hits the frame of the bike and the threaded end is still just to long to clear the hole its coming out of. Am I just completely overlooking the obvious?? Is there a trick to removing the pump?? Im gonna take another look in the morning and hopefully I'm just having a brain fart.


There was no followup to this last post ^^^

 

[StratTuner]

I found this while using Google to search the forum....Not sure if this is helpful in any way....

Hmcp88
12th October 2013, 19:45
Well did the water pump tonight. Everything goes smooth when following the service manual procedure for removal. Only hitch with doing the pump was on the upper most screw. For the first time ever I got myself stuck with a gear wrench that butt up to the frame taking the screw off....that's a big bummer by the way lol. It's the flip it to reverse directions wrench so once it got stuck there was no turning back. Needless to say I have many scratched on the frame and had to scrap that now bent screw, but it could have been worse. I ran the bike until the fan came on to bleed the cooling system and haven't seen any leaks yet! Yay! Didn't notice anything unusual with the old pump but as long as the leak is no more I am happy.

I still can't back the bolt out far enough to make it let go. I can't destroy the bolt, and even if I did, the replacement bolt could NOT go in since that bolt is too long for the available space.

At least I know I'm not the only one who ran into this. Do notice, however, that the pump does NOT come off for that person either UNTIL he removed that bolt.

 

[ld_rider]

I still can't back the bolt out far enough to make it let go. I can't destroy the bolt, and even if I did, the replacement bolt could NOT go in since that bolt is too long for the available space.

I would pull all but one of the engine mounting bolt (loosen that one though) and jack up the engine (slowly and carefully) an inch or so to get the clearance you need. I had to remove the factory engine bolts to mount my engine/trans guard and replace them with longer bolts. I think there are about three or so on each side.

If you decide on something like this, make sure to eyeball <everything> as you slowly lift the engine in the frame. You really don't want to rip any wires/hoses or worse.

 

[b_rubenstein]

Sure, I'm writing a post and someone was quicker than me...

I just took a look at my bike, and here are the two approaches I would try:
- Remove the lower, left engine mounting bolt, then see if it's possible to pry the frame out enough to remove the bolt. I think this might be very iffy.
- Lower the front of the engine enough to remove the bolt. To do this both front engine mounting bolts and the lower rear bolts have to come out. In addition the exhaust header pipe and/or the bolt holding the header pipe to the frame and the muffler have to be removed. The boot between the throttle body and air cleaner assembly would have to be freed up. The engine would be supported with a hydraulic jack so that it could be slowly lowered. This is a reasonable approach for a mechanic to take. It takes quite a bit of disassembly to do it, and I think you may have reached the limit of what you feel comfortable doing. Removing a single bolt and prying the frame may be worth a try.

 

[StratTuner]

Sure, I'm writing a post and someone was quicker than me...

I just took a look at my bike, and here are the two approaches I would try:
- Remove the lower, left engine mounting bolt, then see if it's possible to pry the frame out enough to remove the bolt. I think this might be very iffy.
- Lower the front of the engine enough to remove the bolt. To do this both front engine mounting bolts and the lower rear bolts have to come out. In addition the exhaust header pipe and/or the bolt holding the header pipe to the frame and the muffler have to be removed. The boot between the throttle body and air cleaner assembly would have to be freed up. The engine would be supported with a hydraulic jack so that it could be slowly lowered. This is a reasonable approach for a mechanic to take. It takes quite a bit of disassembly to do it, and I think you may have reached the limit of what you feel comfortable doing. Removing a single bolt and prying the frame may be worth a try.

the last two posts have now entered the realm of what "real" mechanics might do.
I am not that, certainly, and I lack even basic talent.

This sounds like yet another opportunity to "FAIL". I've had quite enough of that.

The flatbed truck will be out in a day or so, and I will heap money on the MotorSport shop to fix this.
I should have done that in the first place.

 

[sumo]

The bolt must be so close to coming out of the block. Your idea to cut off the head after which it will surely come out is a good one. The problem that the new bolt will not go back in can be solved by grinding down that new bolt until it is short enough to go back in. According to cheapcycleparts.com

BOLT, FLANGE (6X35) (NSHF) 90006-GHB-700 $1.99

the original bolt is 35mm, what would it need to be? 34.5, 34.0, 33.5, I don't know but once a 'little' shorter it will go back together.

After looking at everything in this thread and at my own bike I tend to agree with you that the bolt must come out even though this contradicts what the instructions say. It really looks like the instructions are wrong.

I feel like I'm as invested in this as you are, so LETS cut off that bolt, if the bike ends up on a flat bed truck the $1.99 bolt won't make $1.99 worth of difference.

 

[Antarius]

I checked mine and I was able to back mine out far enough to remove the water pump. I wonder if it's really as simple as loosening the motor mounts and just pushing on the engine a tiny bit -- I wonder if it's just an anomaly in the assembly process in Japan. Not a stretch to imagine that 2mm one direction or the other can affect whether or not that bolt can be removed.

Sounds like Strat is going the mechanics route, which is totally fine and up to him -- lord knows I've been plenty frustrated (as I am right now with one of my other bikes, an Aprilia).

 

[StratTuner]

OK... got my NC back from the mechanic's shop today...

They had to cut the existing bolt in two to get it out. They loosened the engine mounts to give more "wiggle" room, but that was not enough.
The bolt they put in is long enough to securely engage the engine block threads but slightly shorter...and even then it was a tight fit.

So ... that's it. The bolt was too long.
I will try replacing it again in when next the coolant pump fails. I actually stand a chance of doing it with the new (shorter) bolt in place.

My sincere thanks to all who offered help and advice... not every thread can be fun and light hearted, and this one was not that!

 

[rippin209]

Glad to hear you got it back so quickly

 

[QuaXum]

Hi ts, off topic a little, can I check with u if there were any weird symptoms or noises coming from the pump before u diagnosed that it's a pump failure?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[StratTuner]

Symptoms:
- spatter of coolant all on the engine by the pump
- coolant puddle under bike
Other than that, no signs.