2021 and up DCT reset

[the Ferret]

Has anyone done a DCT reset on a 21-24 model?

Is this the right procedure in this video?

I have never done it to mine. About to turn over 42,000 miles.

Does mine shift as good as it could? or am I just used to the way it shifts? I don't know.

Sometimes lower gear shifts (1-2-3) are more noticeable, compared to upper gear shifts (4-5-6), but again, is that normal?

I can't remember what it shifted like when it was new going on 3 years ago.

Would it be worth trying the reset procedure?

 

[dduelin]

Has anyone done a DCT reset on a 21-24 model?

Is this the right procedure in this video?

I have never done it to mine. About to turn over 42,000 miles.

Does mine shift as good as it could? or am I just used to the way it shifts? I don't know.

Sometimes lower gear shifts (1-2-3) are more noticeable, compared to upper gear shifts (4-5-6), but again, is that normal?

I can't remember what it shifted like when it was new going on 3 years ago.

Would it be worth trying the reset procedure?

It wouldn’t hurt a thing and you might notice a slight difference in operation.

 

[dustyNC]

Has anyone done a DCT reset on a 21-24 model?

Is this the right procedure in this video?

I have never done it to mine. About to turn over 42,000 miles.

Does mine shift as good as it could? or am I just used to the way it shifts? I don't know.

Sometimes lower gear shifts (1-2-3) are more noticeable, compared to upper gear shifts (4-5-6), but again, is that normal?

I can't remember what it shifted like when it was new going on 3 years ago.

Would it be worth trying the reset procedure?

My 24 DCT lower gear shifts are occasionally more noticeable than the upper gears, mostly if I'm accelerating slowly. I assumed this was normal and never annoying. I have heard a number of bikes with manual clutches sound like they are striking an anvil when going into first gear.

 

[670cc]

My 24 DCT lower gear shifts are occasionally more noticeable than the upper gears, mostly if I'm accelerating slowly. I assumed this was normal and never annoying. I have heard a number of bikes with manual clutches sound like they are striking an anvil when going into first gear.

On the DCT or MT, the ratio spacing is wider in the lower gears. The RPM difference is greater, hence the shift is probably more noticeable. Yes, the MT first gear (from neutral) anvil strike is very unnerving to me. I am genuinely surprised that people doing it routinely do not damage the transmission dogs. To avoid it, I ALWAYS start my MT bikes in first gear. It is pure habit; I give it no conscious thought. If for some unplanned reason I did accidentally start the engine in neutral, I will shut it off, shift to first, then restart the engine.

This common manual transmission/manual clutch design is so crude, IMO. I would have expected manufacturers to have built in some kind of synchronizer to eliminate the cold, first gear CLUNK, but apparently they are not concerned. The neutral to first gear shift is an area where the DCT outshines the MT.

 

[the Ferret]

"On the DCT or MT, the ratio spacing is wider in the lower gears. The RPM difference is greater, hence the shift is probably more noticeable." 670cc

That makes a lot of sense Greg.

Funny thing, I went up and talked to the head tech at my shop (who does all the work on my bikes I can't do (which is pretty much everything but oil/filter changes and chain adjustments lol) and has for at least the last 20 years, and he has never done one of the DCT resets. Not on an NC, AT, Rebel or Wing. He looked it up in his manuals and it says to do it only if you replace the clutches.

He wasn't sure how to advise me on this, since it's not a normal part of DCT maintenance.

 

[dduelin]

A motorcycle transmission is designed to handle the N to 1st gear engagement for the expected service life of the unit. All motorcycles that use a similar constant mesh sequential shift transmission with the clutch in an oil bath are prone to this clunk or bang. The clutch plates stick from surface tension/cold oil and the rider has no or little chance to pause or match revs just right between gears to "slip" the engagement dogs into place plus all the play in the involved moving parts is taken up in an instant. I surmise that full synchronization with use of the cones and blocker rings between gears would make an overall larger transmission a packaging issue in a motorcycle and since it's designed for and creates no issues in service life - "they all do it."

When moving the sequence crossing N to 2nd is twice as long, or far, as every other shift and chances are greater than the gears may not engage as cleanly. The sound may be untenable for some but it doesn't hurt a thing if the engineers designed for it.....Honda does a pretty good job. My DCT when cold makes a clunk, it may not be as loud as a manual but it is there. The clutch packs in a DCT may be smaller or lighter which affect inertia and sound when load comes onto the clutch basket. My BMW with its dry clutch and separate unit construction transmission has no such N - 1st clunk but it still has the 1st to 2nd chance of clunking.

Honda's DCT design incorporates a feedback mechanism that accounts for clutch plate wear and the differences in oil viscosity not only between oil "weights" but also for normal loss of viscosity that happens with mileage. It's pretty amazing to me it works as well as it does adjusting clutch play with these variables. However, there may be some small improvement in drivability after doing the reset and again there may not be. I've gone as far as 20 to 30,000 miles between resets and then only out of curiosity that I can notice a change in shifting. As Mickey's technician friend says, Honda does not expect it is needed to be done unless hard parts are replaced.

 

[670cc]

"On the DCT or MT, the ratio spacing is wider in the lower gears. The RPM difference is greater, hence the shift is probably more noticeable." 670cc

That makes a lot of sense Greg.

Funny thing, I went up and talked to the head tech at my shop (who does all the work on my bikes I can't do (which is pretty much everything but oil/filter changes and chain adjustments lol) and has for at least the last 20 years, and he has never done one of the DCT resets. Not on an NC, AT, Rebel or Wing. He looked it up in his manuals and it says to do it only if you replace the clutches.

He wasn't sure how to advise me on this, since it's not a normal part of DCT maintenance.

Perhaps your shop’s head tech wisely follows logical and documented service procedures. If he had never done a dual clutch replacement or service, it follows that no “reset” was ever needed.

 

[dduelin]

Perhaps your shop’s head tech wisely follows logical and documented service procedures, and never got caught up in the DCT “learns the rider’s riding style” myth. If he had never done a dual clutch replacement or service, it follows that no “reset” was ever needed.

Perhaps the tech has never owned or ridden a DCT long enough to understand what a reset may accomplish. It doesn't hurt anything if not done and may be helpful to a small degree if done. Safe play to follow Honda's recommendations.

To the 'myth'....... I don't know the term for this but Honda's DCT absolutely responds differently to the rider based on the way the rider has most recently been or is riding. For example if riding aggressively or sporty as in large and rapid throttle movements combined with rapidly increasing mph and rapidly decreasing mph, the transmission will hold gear shifts off longer as long as these parameters of rpm and mph are being repeated. Higher rpm shift points keep the engine in the upper part of the power band and increase engine braking which aid a rapid pace on a twisting road. A rider accelerating hard out of curves followed by heavy braking into the next curve knows this behavior and also knows that when the curves or pace slows and the road becomes straight the transmission responds by going back to shifting at lower rpms as it clears the most recent rider demands out of the computer. However it doesn't reduce the shift points immediately and may hold the current gear long enough it's noticeably not responding to the lack of mph change. It figures it out soon enough though. Honestly I don't know how it does this but it's apparent there's something to learning behavior.

 

[670cc]

Perhaps the tech has never owned or ridden a DCT long enough to understand what a reset may accomplish. It doesn't hurt anything if not done and may be helpful to a small degree if done. Safe play to follow Honda's recommendations.

If there is value in doing periodic DCT resets, perhaps Honda would do well to rewrite the service procedures or operator’s manual. As the DCT apparently does not adequately self adjust to compensate for changes or wear in the clutch, Honda could add a recommended service interval for DCT resets, or recommend it to the owner on an as-needed basis.

 

[dduelin]

670cc wrote:

As the DCT apparently does not adequately self adjust to compensate for changes or wear in the clutch.......

How did you come to this conclusion?

 

[670cc]

670cc wrote:

As the DCT apparently does not adequately self adjust to compensate for changes or wear in the clutch.......

How did you come to this conclusion?

I used the word "apparently" because I have no direct evidence.

As I understand it, the so-called “DCT reset” procedure is a semi automated characterization routine to allow a newly installed clutch to operate correctly. Per Honda's manual, that is the only purpose for the procedure, and it is only recommend at clutch or PCM replacement. If owners are seeing real value in doing the reset procedure at intervals, I concluded totally on my own that there is perhaps either an instability in the clutch system, or more likely there are changes occurring due to wear from normal use. It was my conclusion and that is how I came to it.

Having spent a lifetime career working on electrical/mechanical/hydraulic/magnetic/RF/radiation/sonic systems that had automated, semi-automated, and/or manual calibration and characterization service procedures, I just naturally have come to think that way. Whether it applies to a Honda motorcycle, I don't know.

 

[lootzyan]

I used the word "apparently" because I have no direct evidence...

Your use of the word "apparently" is logical based on observations and information provided in the Honda Service Manual.
It is not Honda's responsibility to educate how the system works in their DCTs used on their motorcycles. The "DCT System Diagram" shown in the Service Manual is a bonus because it would not be required to perform the diagnostics and repairs described in Section 12. But this "DCT System Diagram" shows it all.
Many times in similar previous discussions there was talk about the system's ability to learn and adapt to driving habits. But "DCT reset" does nothing of the sort. It is performed without starting the engine and only while stationary with the DCT in the Neutral position. Operating the N-D switch during "reset" has no effect on the operation of the DCT. So the only information that the PCM collects are signals from various sensors (voltage) as basic data for parameters in PCM programming.

 

[670cc]

Your use of the word "apparently" is logical based on observations and information provided in the Honda Service Manual.
It is not Honda's responsibility to educate how the system works in their DCTs used on their motorcycles. The "DCT System Diagram" shown in the Service Manual is a bonus because it would not be required to perform the diagnostics and repairs described in Section 12. But this "DCT System Diagram" shows it all.
Many times in similar previous discussions there was talk about the system's ability to learn and adapt to driving habits. But "DCT reset" does nothing of the sort. It is performed without starting the engine and only while stationary with the DCT in the Neutral position. Operating the N-D switch during "reset" has no effect on the operation of the DCT. So the only information that the PCM collects are signals from various sensors (voltage) as basic data for parameters in PCM programming.

I agree. Further, Honda does not call the procedure “DCT Reset” as people commonly do, rather it is “Clutch Initialize Learning“. It is called for at clutch and/or PCM replacement. I suspect it is with either, because the clutch is where the clutch variables are, and the PCM is where the clutch actuation parameters are stored. If the procedure had anything to do with rider inputs or style, logically it would be recommended at rider replacement, not just clutch replacement. If it were recommended at rider replacement, I would expect the procedure would be presented in the owner’s manual, which it is not.

 

[dduelin]

Your use of the word "apparently" is logical based on observations and information provided in the Honda Service Manual.
It is not Honda's responsibility to educate how the system works in their DCTs used on their motorcycles. The "DCT System Diagram" shown in the Service Manual is a bonus because it would not be required to perform the diagnostics and repairs described in Section 12. But this "DCT System Diagram" shows it all.
Many times in similar previous discussions there was talk about the system's ability to learn and adapt to driving habits. But "DCT reset" does nothing of the sort. It is performed without starting the engine and only while stationary with the DCT in the Neutral position. Operating the N-D switch during "reset" has no effect on the operation of the DCT. So the only information that the PCM collects are signals from various sensors (voltage) as basic data for parameters in PCM programming.

As the last step in the reset the engine is started and allowed to idle until a self diagnosis program runs its course and determines the DCT is operating within design specifications. I could be wrong but it seems logical that there are some max and min parameters to clutch take up based on thickness of friction plates and properties of the oil in the valves activating the clutches. Roughly analogous to a manual transmission's clutch cable adjustment and type and condition of oil in the engine which affect clutch operation. Here is where the feedback loops in the DCT continuously make adjustments based on friction disk wear and oil properties.

In the event that the DCT is operating properly and one does the reset anyway but doesn't perform the reset properly the DCT will not allow operation and warns the user through one of two dashboard trouble indicators. Wouldn't this indicate the reset does have the ability to affect operation of the DCT?

I agree that the reset (clutch initialization learning properly termed) is probably not ever necessary unless the PCM and/or clutch assemblies are replaced but it doesn't hurt anything and if the parameters are returned to optimal from close to out of spec a rider could notice a difference from operation immediately prior to the reset. That's how I explain it. I've gone on record saying the reset is not required and doesn't change anything but after some tens of thousands of miles of holding that opinion I performed a reset and noticed a difference. IIRC I went on to say that the difference becomes the norm almost immediately so any actual improvement could not objectively be measured.

 

[lootzyan]

As the last step in the reset the engine is started and allowed to idle ...

Yes, you are right. Starting the engine is required to allow oil pressure in the DCT system. This is needed to properly measure the voltage of the clutch pressure sensors. If it does not deviate from the assumed data, the analog voltage values are converted into digital values in the PCM and accepted as base values - i.e. the calibration process takes place and nothing more.

 

[dduelin]

Yes, you are right. Starting the engine is required to allow oil pressure in the DCT system. This is needed to properly measure the voltage of the clutch pressure sensors. If it does not deviate from the assumed data, the analog voltage values are converted into digital values in the PCM and accepted as base values - i.e. the calibration process takes place and nothing more.

How does the 2012-2017 DCT respond to changes in road speed that indicate the PCM is aware [responding to] the rider using large throttle settings followed by aggressive braking as in when riding hard on a twisty road? Specifically how does it hold shift points higher momentarily until it figures out the rider is no longer engaging in this behavior. Another illustrative situation is when we call for wide open throttle acceleration from a stop and it shifts just before redline into 2nd, 3rd, 4th but after 4th gear the rider stops accelerating when the tach is at redline. The bike will hold 4th at that rpm will then shift into 5th and hold that gear momentarily at high rpm before upshifting to 6th and dropping to cruise rpm. I know it does not have the capacity to learn and store the rider's habits but it clearly responds differently to most recent rider behavior.

I'm not arguing just asking for your knowledge of how the PCM handles these situations.

 

[670cc]

How does the 2012-2017 DCT respond to changes in road speed that indicate the PCM is aware [responding to] the rider using large throttle settings followed by aggressive braking as in when riding hard on a twisty road? Specifically how does it hold shift points higher momentarily until it figures out the rider is no longer engaging in this behavior. Another illustrative situation is when we call for wide open throttle acceleration from a stop and it shifts just before redline into 2nd, 3rd, 4th but after 4th gear the rider stops accelerating when the tach is at redline. The bike will hold 4th at that rpm will then shift into 5th and hold that gear momentarily at high rpm before upshifting to 6th and dropping to cruise rpm. I know it does not have the capacity to learn and store the rider's habits but it clearly responds differently to most recent rider behavior.

I'm not arguing just asking for your knowledge of how the PCM handles these situations.

Clutch Initialize Learning, in my understanding, teaches the PCM how to smoothly and properly operate the dual clutch. That learning would or should have nothing to do with gear choice or decisions on when to shift. How PCM handles gear choice at what time would seem to be a discussion outside of the clutch initialize learning process. It would surely be an interesting topic, nonetheless.

 

[lootzyan]

How does the 2012-2017 DCT respond to changes in road speed...

I can only guess because I am not a specialist in PGM-FI engines. And Honda doesn't bother providing details. This is not their goal.
But I think the main factor in determining the DCT shift point is the acceleration ratio and load demand. So, the throttle position changes in relation to time. The time is given by the internal clock. The rest of the information is collected from sensors. Math isn't that complicated. The software algorithm is developed and executed by PCM. This is nothing new and has been used in vehicles with DCT as well as in traditional automatic multi-gear transmissions for quite a long time.

 

[davidc83]

The clunk is normal and I don't notice it. Even my little klx250sf has it. The Honda is clunk, the C50 is Clunk, and the bmw g650gs I used to own was CLUNK. The only time the service manual states to do a DCT resynchronization is when clutch plates are replaced.

 

[dustyNC]

On the DCT or MT, the ratio spacing is wider in the lower gears. The RPM difference is greater, hence the shift is probably more noticeable. Yes, the MT first gear (from neutral) anvil strike is very unnerving to me. I am genuinely surprised that people doing it routinely do not damage the transmission dogs. To avoid it, I ALWAYS start my MT bikes in first gear. It is pure habit; I give it no conscious thought. If for some unplanned reason I did accidentally start the engine in neutral, I will shut it off, shift to first, then restart the engine.

This common manual transmission/manual clutch. design is so crude, IMO. I would have expected manufacturers to have built in some kind of synchronizer to eliminate the cold, first gear CLUNK, but apparently they are not concerned. The neutral to first gear shift is an area where the DCT outshines the MT

On the DCT or MT, the ratio spacing is wider in the lower gears. The RPM difference is greater, hence the shift is probably more noticeable. Yes, the MT first gear (from neutral) anvil strike is very unnerving to me. I am genuinely surprised that people doing it routinely do not damage the transmission dogs. To avoid it, I ALWAYS start my MT bikes in first gear. It is pure habit; I give it no conscious thought. If for some unplanned reason I did accidentally start the engine in neutral, I will shut it off, shift to first, then restart the engine.

This common manual transmission/manual clutch design is so crude, IMO. I would have expected manufacturers to have built in some kind of synchronizer to eliminate the cold, first gear CLUNK, but apparently they are not concerned. The neutral to first gear shift is an area where the DCT outshines the MT.

I have also always started my MT bikes in first gear to avoid the clunk, and wondered what percentage of riders do the same.
While riding my DCT today, I listened carefully for noise while shifting. Other than putting it in drive initially there was nothing to complain about. No way to avoid it on the DCT I guess.