Traffic controlled lights

[anglachel]

As a basis of comparison, here is a list, in descending order, of the most commonly used conductive materials.
According to this, the best metal to use to help trigger a buried loop sensor would be copper, but it is relatively expensive and heavy.
Aluminum is the clear winner as it is cheap AND light weight.
Steel basically sucks.
So stick with the aluminum wheels if you already have them.

That's conductivity, induction loop depends on inductivity.
There is a direct correlation between the two for NON-Magnetic metals... but for magnetic metals like steel, that's not true, the measure of Permeability needs to be taken into consideration.

Induction isn't just an electrical process, it's an electromagnetic process (technically all electrical processes are electromagnetic, the two forces are fundamentally linked)

Conductivity is Half the story for the material aspect (maybe even a third because an existing magnetic field is helpful having the loop detect you as well)


And materials are 1/3rd of the overall story with distance and mass also having a say in the end result.
So lighter wheels in this one particular instance of trying to trip a sensor is actually a BAD thing, not saying it's a good thing anywhere else, More metal is better than less for an induction loop.
Distance is however the largest contributor that we can reasonable control, it's impact follows the inverse square law, basically it's impact is exponential compared to the near linear effecfs of mass or materials.

 

[lootzyan]

...What is actually being measured is how hard it is to flip that magnetic field from the north pole being up to the north pole being down...

Actually, what's happening, is that vehicle (with ferromagnetic materials like iron, nickel) passing over wire loop electromagnetic field induces circular electric currents within those wire loops. Those circular currents create micro electromagnetic fields that oppose the electromagnetic field which created those current. (What you ate gives you a heartburn). Inductance is decreased, what is detected by monitoring devices and signal is send to change lights. This physical phenomena of circular currents is widely used in induction furnaces in steel mills and in induction cooktop ranges in our kitchen.

 

[Brillot2000]

Actually, what's happening, is that vehicle (with ferromagnetic materials like iron, nickel) passing over wire loop electromagnetic field induces circular electric currents within those wire loops. Those circular currents create micro electromagnetic fields that oppose the electromagnetic field which created those current. (What you ate gives you a heartburn). Inductance is decreased, what is detected by monitoring devices and signal is send to change lights. This physical phenomena of circular currents is widely used in induction furnaces in steel mills and in induction cooktop ranges in our kitchen.

Well, motorcycles these days do not have "Ferromagnetic Materials" in mass quantities anymore. They are mix of mostly plastics and aluminum with a minimal amounts of the steel. Aluminum is not heavily affected by magnetic fields, so to a traffic light detector it is not there. That's why the "Magnet Method" came about. There are many mixed feelings and thoughts regarding this method and if it truly works.

I, myself have played around with a few of the magnets that are commercially available to address this issue. None of them were reliable and did not work at all. Many of there were neodymium magnets with a rating of about 40 lbs of pull force. To be effective, one might need one of 100 lbs or more to get a response from the traffic light detector.



There are risk involved with using magnets with strong magnetic pulls, such as road debris being drawn to you. Even with the magnet shown above, I was finding small pieces of ferromagnetic items being picked up from the roadway. There was also a significant amount iron dust being collected from sand and dirt as it passed over the ground. The stronger the magnet, the larger the size for the ferromagnetic debris that will be picked up and the amount of iron dust.

 

[Fuzzy]

Maybe someone needs to develop an electromagnet that can be turned on when needed and off the rest of the time to not attract road debris. Short use at the light shouldn't drain the battery.

 

[lootzyan]

Well, motorcycles these days do not have "Ferromagnetic Materials" in mass quantities anymore. ...

Oh, really? You have already over 200 lb of ferrous alloys under skirt of your NaNCy, which is more than enough to trigger inductive-loop detector, if is not broken already.

 

[670cc]

My 1982 Suzuki had about the same amount of ferrous materials as my NC. They both had/have steel frames, metal fuel tanks, aluminum wheels, aluminum engine case. I don't think the ferrous ratio has changed much since then.

 

[lootzyan]

Transmission shafts and gears, frame, engine guard, crankshaft, centerstand - make most of significant weight in this case. Aluminum alloys don't do much to magnetic fields.

 

[Brillot2000]

Oh, really? You have already over 200 lb of ferrous alloys under skirt of your NaNCy, which is more than enough to trigger inductive-loop detector, if is not broken already.

The average automobile has over 2,500 lbs of steel, the NC's 200 lbs is just a fraction and not enough to be detected by these detectors in the state that most cities and counties allow them to operate in.

In most cases, these detectors are looking to find an elephant, not a mouse...

Besides these systems need constant maintenance and adjustments to keep them detecting smaller objects, such as motorcycles. I called the city once to have the light closest to my home looked at. They sent someone out there and it worked to detect my bike for awhile. Then it went back to not triggering for me. This forced me to do one of two things, either wait for a car to come behind me/across the way or run the light when safe to do so.

If the diameter of the detector loops were reduced to half their size, then they just might be able to detect a motorcycle or bicycle. However this would require more loops to be placed in roadway, typically 2 in the place of one and the additional electronic modules to monitor them. I do not see any manufacturer or city/county looking to spend more money on traffic lights to be able to detect motorcycles any time soon.

Some cities and counties use cameras to detect vehicles. These will detect a motorcycle or bicycle at an intersection reliably.

 

[Harald]

I'm a strong advocate of reporting defective traffic lights for a couple reasons. If a light doesn't trigger when a motorcycle is waiting, then it's defective.

It's not practical to report lights when you are traveling out of town, but there's no reason to not do it for the ones you encounter on a regular basis. It's sometime tough to figure out who's responsible for a particular light: for instance the light on a road at the end of the Interstate freeway could be the state DOT, the county or a city traffic signal department. In all cases, whoever I reported to has either fixed the problem or referred me to the correct agency.

The benefit to reporting bad signals is that you get to ride in your normal local roads without the aggravation of sitting there endlessly or risk a ticket when running the light. You will also benefit other riders that come through your area, so think of it as community service when you report. If all riders did this in their locality, then we'd all benefit!

I highly suggest keeping all correspondence when you report defective traffic lights. Although I haven't had to try this, I can't help but think that this would be a great help if you had to go before a judge to contest a ticket for running a defective traffic light. "Your honor, as you can see from the proof before you I have been very proactive in having defective traffic lights repaired"

 

[Brillot2000]

I'm a strong advocate of reporting defective traffic lights for a couple reasons. If a light doesn't trigger when a motorcycle is waiting, then it's defective.

It's not practical to report lights when you are traveling out of town, but there's no reason to not do it for the ones you encounter on a regular basis. It's sometime tough to figure out who's responsible for a particular light: for instance the light on a road at the end of the Interstate freeway could be the state DOT, the county or a city traffic signal department. In all cases, whoever I reported to has either fixed the problem or referred me to the correct agency.

The benefit to reporting bad signals is that you get to ride in your normal local roads without the aggravation of sitting there endlessly or risk a ticket when running the light. You will also benefit other riders that come through your area, so think of it as community service when you report. If all riders did this in their locality, then we'd all benefit!

I highly suggest keeping all correspondence when you report defective traffic lights. Although I haven't had to try this, I can't help but think that this would be a great help if you had to go before a judge to contest a ticket for running a defective traffic light. "Your honor, as you can see from the proof before you I have been very proactive in having defective traffic lights repaired"

This is only good for the traffic lights nearest to your home on the route that you travel often. However it is not practical for someone such as myself that lives in a large metropolitan city, there has to be at least 50 lights that I get stuck at on a regular basis. Also when drivers that come up behind me always stop before/behind the rear detector loop, which is at least 10-15 feet behind me. They will not pull up to trigger the light, this gets on my nerves. Sometimes I have to pull into the crosswalk the get them to put over the second loop. Cagers in a large city such as mine must have "Mush" for brains and they cannot think for themselves.

My oldest son started driving recently. The instructor of the driving school I hired instructed him to stop too far back, usually not over the second detector loop and told him to wait there for the light to change. Well, it won't change if he's the only vehicle at the intersection. I see other "Cagers" doing the same thing everywhere these days and leaving "Huge" spaces in between the car in front them to park a 747 into. I am working on curing him of this immediately.

 

[Thangmorian]

Maybe someone needs to develop an electromagnet that can be turned on when needed and off the rest of the time to not attract road debris. Short use at the light shouldn't drain the battery.

How about a Starter with the rotor removed?

 

[lootzyan]

The average automobile has over 2,500 lbs of steel, the NC's 200 lbs is just a fraction and not enough to be detected by these detectors in the state that most cities and counties allow them to operate in.
In most cases, these detectors are looking to find an elephant, not a mouse...
Besides these systems need constant maintenance and adjustments ...

My small 150cc scooter is easily detected on one intersection. On the same intersection 20 ton dump-truck is not detected because of a truck clearance over a loop.
The system absolutely doesn't need constant adjustment if conductivity of wire loops is in norm. And Sun storms don't have much effect.

This discussion is pointless because the system is a failure and was for long time already. The problem is not with technology but with implementation. There is "one-size-fits-all" on one hand, and often failures of connections between wire loops and junction box, mostly because of winter damage. Most of regional DOT managers know about it. They are required to install detections because of regulation and budget for it. That's it. They mostly ignore calls to fix something what does not significantly affects safety. Not enough budget. They're going to do that when is next scheduled intersection overhaul. And they are not going to fight for system change because it's not they problem and... job security.

Not long time ago I've seen TV report from some Dutch town where city planners decided to change most of intersections with traffic lights to roundabout intersections, to save on budget. Simple and effective.
In this country's system of lethargic legislature and bureaucracy it's going to take another 100 years before change to something more efficient. If ain't broke, don't fix it.
Or... Google takes over with driverless vehicles.

 

[Brillot2000]

Well, I think it is time for a "Myth Buster Project" here to "Debunk" the Magnet Theory.

I have come prepared for this. I have purchased a slim 100 lb pull Neodymium magnet off of Amazon for under $20. Once it arrives, I will attach it to my boot or the bike and stop at a light in the my neighborhood that I know would not trip before for me. I will repeat the process several times to see if it will trip consistently.

Please standby for further information...

 

[Brillot2000]

I found this video on YouTube instructions on how to get a bicycle to trip a traffic light.

[video=youtube;Sj-mNB6dLkk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj-mNB6dLkk[/video]

Give it a try to see if it works with motorcycles too.

 

[Fuzzy]

I read somewhere that the best place to stop a motorcycle is in the center of the lane at the front of the area that has been cut out for the detector.

 

[BerndM]

I found this Federal Hiway / DOT website that goes into the issue of bikes and motorcycles

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/08may/02.cfm

 

[MichaelJohn]

I don't have any problems on the NC. My Zero, on the other hand, hardly ever trips sensors and it drives me crazy. There is a light right near my house that gets me every time on the Zero. We have the two cycle rule here in California, but if it's just a two-way intersection and the sensor doesn't pick you up the light will never change. I just wait for traffic to clear and run the damn thing every time now. As Old Can Ride said, I ain't got time to stop.

 

[agia]

I found this video on YouTube instructions on how to get a bicycle to trip a traffic light.

[video=youtube;Sj-mNB6dLkk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj-mNB6dLkk[/video]

I learned years ago that doesn't work on my full carbon fiber frame road bike. I end up hitting the crosswalk buttons. The NC triggers OK but on the DR200 I sometimes lean the bike way over to bring the metal mass closer to the ground to trip the inductive loop.

 

[SergeantChuck]

I rarely have problems with my NC. Thankfully

This may have already been mentioned but in my area they are going to the overhead cameras you see at a traffic signals that are solely for detecting the presence of vehicles. They are a replacement for in-ground induction loops that are cut into the pavement. These seem to work well.

 

[Brillot2000]

I rarely have problems with my NC. Thankfully

This may have already been mentioned but in my area they are going to the overhead cameras you see at a traffic signals that are solely for detecting the presence of vehicles. They are a replacement for in-ground induction loops that are cut into the pavement. These seem to work well.

They have those cameras in Simi Valley, CA, which is Ventura County. They work very well when I am on either NaNCy or Sparky.

Los Angeles County solely uses or favors the Inductive Loop Detectors at thier intersections. Many of the intersections have older equipment and the sensitivity to detect smaller vehicles such as motorcycles is just not there anymore. Equipment only gets updated if it fails completely or if they redo the entire intersection. As I mentioned in an earlier post regarding how the county allows these signals to operate in their current state, these are looking for "Elephants", not "Mice". Unfortunately, motorcycles are considered "Mice" by these neglected systems.