2022: What did you do to/with your NC700/NC750 today?

[mzflorida]

There is certainly no problem or harm in using a maintainer, but my question is, why would a battery maintainer need to be more aggressive in a "polar" climate, when charging needs or necessity are actually reduced or eliminated?

There is more to it than just reduced voltage loss. Slower discharge, charging needs, vehicle CCA requirements, and at what point after the unmaintained battery will be called upon to start the vehicle are some of the variables that have to be considered as to whether or not the battery should be maintained. Also, the fact that a battery has reduced voltage loss while unmaintained does not consider that a frozen battery is irreparably damaged. Battery fluids are less electrolyzed when they are cold and more prone to freezing. Charging in very cold climates (properly) has different voltage requirements than in warm climates. Modern maintainers prevent batteries from freezing until somewhere around -76F. An uncharged battery can freeze at 32F. An unmaintained battery stored in "cold" environments will almost necessarily become unserviceable quicker than the same battery, maintained, in the same environment. I can 100% see the need for a "polar" charger if it addresses the charging requirements in colder environments, keeps the battery at 100%, and prevents it from freezing.

 

[670cc]

There is more to it than just reduced voltage loss. Slower discharge, charging needs, vehicle CCA requirements, and at what point after the unmaintained battery will be called upon to start the vehicle are some of the variables that have to be considered as to whether or not the battery should be maintained. Also, the fact that a battery has reduced voltage loss while unmaintained does not consider that a frozen battery is irreparably damaged. Battery fluids are less electrolyzed when they are cold and more prone to freezing. Charging in very cold climates (properly) has different voltage requirements than in warm climates. Modern maintainers prevent batteries from freezing until somewhere around -76F. An uncharged battery can freeze at 32F. An unmaintained battery stored in "cold" environments will almost necessarily become unserviceable quicker than the same battery, maintained, in the same environment. I can 100% see the need for a "polar" charger if it addresses the charging requirements in colder environments, keeps the battery at 100%, and prevents it from freezing.

Modern maintainer or not, a charged lead-acid battery is not going to freeze until, as you said, around -76F (-60C). If I have my NC’s or other toy’s battery fully charged before I store it, it will not freeze (until reaching -76F, which won’t happen). So I charge it, ensure no parasitic loads, store it cold, then I can pretty much forget it.

Truth be told, out of curiosity I'll sometimes briefly hook up an Optimate "smart" charger every month or two to winter-stored motorcycles and scooters, if unridden. Upon connecting the charger, they show full charge in a very short time, telling me that the battery experienced little to no self discharge. (But, this winter has been mild and some motorcycles are ridden frequently; I haven't used a charger).

 

[Deleted member 1183]

I have to maint

Correct. A charged lead-acid battery is not going to freeze until to -76F (-60C). If I have your NC battery charged before I store it, it would not freeze (until reaching-76F). So charge it, ensure no parasitic loads, store it cold, then forget it. Why bother with the maintainer, unless I just want more things to do?

Truth be told, out of curiosity I'll sometimes briefly hook up an Optimate "smart" charger every month or two to winter-stored motorcycles and scooters, if unridden. Upon connecting the charger, they show full charge in a very short time, telling me that the battery experienced little to no self discharge. (But, this winter has been mild and some motorcycles are ridden frequently; I haven't used a charger).

I have to keep my X-Adv on a maintenance charge over the winter when not in regular weekly use. The reason is that the tracker fitted draws too much charge over a two week period. It took a new battery for me to figure out the culprit. However given the original battery was still good, and when my old NX needed a new battery there was no loss in the end because it fitted (just).

 

[670cc]

I have to keep my X-Adv on a maintenance charge over the winter when not in regular weekly use. The reason is that the tracker fitted draws too much charge over a two week period. It took a new battery for me to figure out the culprit. However given the original battery was still good, and when my old NX needed a new battery there was no loss in the end because it fitted (just).

Exactly. As I suggested above, in storage you are needing a power supply for the tracker, hence the need for a maintainer.

 

[the Ferret]

It used to be said that batteries lost 1% per day from just sitting, and that letting them get low was detrimental to their longevity. Not sure if that is true anymore or not. Call me old fashioned, but my bikes are on battery tender jrs whenever I am not riding them, and I have done that for decades.

 

[670cc]

It used to be said that batteries lost 1% per day from just sitting, and that letting them get low was detrimental to their longevity. Not sure if that is true anymore or not. Call me old fashioned, but my bikes are on battery tender jrs whenever I am not riding them, and I have done that for decades.

The 1% would be just a general number without knowing the battery’s temperature. The daily loss could be near 0% when cold, or could be over 2% when hot. No harm in using the tender.

 

[the Ferret]

from google

Power Loss and Slow Chemical Reactions​

Freezing weather drains your battery power by 30-60%. Your battery naturally recharges as you drive—but you must first face the challenge of getting it started. Why does the cold drain battery power?

Most batteries work through an electrochemical reaction, which sends power signals to your terminal ends. This chemical reaction slows down in colder weather, weakening your battery’s power.

Bottom Line on the Effect of Temperature on Batteries​

• Cold batteries hold their charge longer than room temperature batteries; hot batteries don't hold a charge as well as room temperature or cold batteries. It's good practice to store unused batteries in a cool location.
• Cold batteries discharge faster than warmer batteries, so if you're using a cold battery, keep a warm one in reserve.

I guess the question is what is cool and what is cold?

It's probably 19 degrees in my garage right now. I consider that cold lol

 

[bigbird]

I forgot to add in my first post on this maintainer topic that every one of the dozen or so motorcycle and powersports dealers in and around my city install an SAE pigtail on the batteries of every vehicle they sell as part of the PDI.
They don't supply the maintainer, just the pigtail, and they don't charge for the part or installation.
That tells me something about their need and use.
BTW, you can't buy a car or truck in my province without a factory or dealer installed engine block heater.
You have no choice, as the dealer won't remove it even if you have heated or underground parking.
Their answer is it's part of our sale and the current owner may not want or need it, but a future owner likely will.
Our climate is what it is.

CTEK does not use SAE connectors.
They have a proprietary connector that is much more weatherproof and easier to connect/disconnect than an SAE pigtail.

 

[dduelin]

from google

Power Loss and Slow Chemical Reactions​

Freezing weather drains your battery power by 30-60%. Your battery naturally recharges as you drive—but you must first face the challenge of getting it started. Why does the cold drain battery power?

Most batteries work through an electrochemical reaction, which sends power signals to your terminal ends. This chemical reaction slows down in colder weather, weakening your battery’s power.

Bottom Line on the Effect of Temperature on Batteries​

• Cold batteries hold their charge longer than room temperature batteries; hot batteries don't hold a charge as well as room temperature or cold batteries. It's good practice to store unused batteries in a cool location.
• Cold batteries discharge faster than warmer batteries, so if you're using a cold battery, keep a warm one in reserve.

I guess the question is what is cool and what is cold?

It's probably 19 degrees in my garage right now. I consider that cold lol

I sold marine batteries for 10 years but I had to look up self discharge rates. It's about 3% per month at 68 F but self discharge rates drop sharply when storage temperatures are lower than 32F. At 32F a fully charged battery can be stored for 12 months at which it will retain 88% of original charge.

 

[dduelin]

I forgot to add in my first post on this maintainer topic that every one of the dozen or so motorcycle and powersports dealers in and around my city install an SAE pigtail on the batteries of every vehicle they sell as part of the PDI.
They don't supply the maintainer, just the pigtail, and they don't charge for the part or installation.
That tells me something about their need and use.
BTW, you can't buy a car or truck in my province without a factory or dealer installed engine block heater.
You have no choice, as the dealer won't remove it even if you have heated or underground parking.
Their answer is it's part of our sale and the current owner may not want or need it, but a future owner likely will.
Our climate is what it is.

Adding the SAE connector at PDI sounds like prepping the buyer for the charger "that is absolutely" necessary to maintain your new vehicle. "And over here are the charger/maintainers we recommend for your new vehicle, which one can I get for you?"

 

[Deleted member 1183]

It used to be said that batteries lost 1% per day from just sitting, and that letting them get low was detrimental to their longevity. Not sure if that is true anymore or not. Call me old fashioned, but my bikes are on battery tender jrs whenever I am not riding them, and I have done that for decades.

My Strom lives under a carport under a cover all year round. As such it is effectively outdoors. It can be lying up for up to two months at a time over winter but the battery has always kept its voltage sufficiently to start without assistance.

 

[the Ferret]

we seem to be get conflicting information, but here is what Yuasa (the maker of the battery) says

Winter Battery Storage for Spring Start-Up | Yuasa Battery

Learn about proper winter battery storage for the cold months and have confidence come springtime when you go to start up your ride.

www.yuasabatteries.com

in summation (their bolding not mine)

Caring for your motorcycle’s battery over the winter months is simple if these two rules are followed: Keep the battery stored out of the freezing cold environment and keep the battery charged.

 

[bigbird]

I sold marine batteries for 10 years but I had to look up self discharge rates. It's about 3% per month at 68 F but self discharge rates drop sharply when storage temperatures are lower than 32F. At 32F a fully charged battery can be stored for 12 months at which it will retain 88% of original charge.

I don't have to tell you that deep discharge batteries are very different than powersport batteries in terms of plate construction, materials, and charging requirements.
But the general audience here may not know that.

 

[dduelin]

I don't have to tell you that deep discharge batteries are very different than powersport batteries in terms of plate construction, materials, and charging requirements.
But the general audience here may not know that.

Those self discharge numbers are right out of the Yuasa powersport battery manual. Page 9 I believe.

Boats have engine start batteries as well as deep cycle house storage batteries as you say but was speaking to the subject relative to motorcycles.

 

[dduelin]

we seem to be get conflicting information, but here is what Yuasa (the maker of the battery) says

Winter Battery Storage for Spring Start-Up | Yuasa Battery

Learn about proper winter battery storage for the cold months and have confidence come springtime when you go to start up your ride.

www.yuasabatteries.com

in summation (their bolding not mine)

Caring for your motorcycle’s battery over the winter months is simple if these two rules are followed: Keep the battery stored out of the freezing cold environment and keep the battery charged.

Also: https://www.yuasabatteries.com/resources/guides/motorcycle-batterys-shelf-life/

 

[670cc]

from google

Power Loss and Slow Chemical Reactions​

Freezing weather drains your battery power by 30-60%. Your battery naturally recharges as you drive—but you must first face the challenge of getting it started. Why does the cold drain battery power?

Most batteries work through an electrochemical reaction, which sends power signals to your terminal ends. This chemical reaction slows down in colder weather, weakening your battery’s power.

Bottom Line on the Effect of Temperature on Batteries​

• Cold batteries hold their charge longer than room temperature batteries; hot batteries don't hold a charge as well as room temperature or cold batteries. It's good practice to store unused batteries in a cool location.
• Cold batteries discharge faster than warmer batteries, so if you're using a cold battery, keep a warm one in reserve.

I guess the question is what is cool and what is cold?

It's probably 19 degrees in my garage right now. I consider that cold lol

These are two different aspects of battery performance.

The first section is talking about the lower potential current output from the battery when cold.

The second section is talking about battery state of charge and self discharge over time in cold vs room temperature storage. Then in the second section “cold batteries discharge faster“ means that the current output of a battery in use drops below a usable level sooner because the current output is lower when the battery is cold. That is not the same as it’s state of charge. The cold battery can be fully charged, but when cold cannot release energy at the same rate as when warm.

 

[670cc]

I forgot to add in my first post on this maintainer topic that every one of the dozen or so motorcycle and powersports dealers in and around my city install an SAE pigtail on the batteries of every vehicle they sell as part of the PDI.
They don't supply the maintainer, just the pigtail, and they don't charge for the part or installation.
That tells me something about their need and use.
BTW, you can't buy a car or truck in my province without a factory or dealer installed engine block heater.
You have no choice, as the dealer won't remove it even if you have heated or underground parking.
Their answer is it's part of our sale and the current owner may not want or need it, but a future owner likely will.
Our climate is what it is.

CTEK does not use SAE connectors.
They have a proprietary connector that is much more weatherproof and easier to connect/disconnect than an SAE pigtail.

View attachment 48142

I have installed a 2 pin SAE coonector on every motorcycle, scooter, mower, boat, etc. I own. One of my first mods. I’ll want them for vehicles that have parasitic loads, can be good for long term boat storage of 6 months, and can be useful in summer when battery self discharge is highest. I put an SAE plug on my Ridgeline, too, since it sits in a heated garage, I don’t use it much in winter, and it has parasitic losses.

 

[bigbird]

Adding the SAE connector at PDI sounds like prepping the buyer for the charger "that is absolutely" necessary to maintain your new vehicle. "And over here are the charger/maintainers we recommend for your new vehicle, which one can I get for you?"

Not at all.
I wasn't even aware of the SAE pigtail installed on my NC until I got it home.
As I started getting to the battery to install my own CTEK pigtail, I found their dealer installed SAE pigtail.
The connector end was hidden in behind the engine.

 

[670cc]

I sold marine batteries for 10 years but I had to look up self discharge rates. It's about 3% per month at 68 F but self discharge rates drop sharply when storage temperatures are lower than 32F. At 32F a fully charged battery can be stored for 12 months at which it will retain 88% of original charge.

This illustrates the reason for my original skepticism. Why would there even be a need for a “Polar” maintainer if battery self discharge is almost non existent in a “polar” climate? There is no harm in having/using one, of course.

 

[bigbird]

I have installed a 2 pin SAE coonector on every motorcycle, scooter, mower, boat, etc. I own. One of my first mods. I’ll want them for vehicles that have parasitic loads, can be good for long term boat storage of 6 months, and can be useful in summer when battery self discharge is highest. I put an SAE plug on my Ridgeline, too, since it sits in a heated garage, I don’t use it much in winter, and it has parasitic losses.

I do the same.
My Subaru got an SAE pigtail before its first winter of ownership.
It had a cheap Panasonic OEM battery and after just a week of no use, it would crank slowly.
I knew it would never make it through a winter.
Reading the Subaru forum, everyone complained about the OEM battery.
I didn't bother with a dealer intervention, because they would just load test the freshly driven battery and say all was good.
Even if they replaced the battery, its replacement would be the exact same POS battery that it came with from the factory.
I replaced it with a higher CCA Walmart Everstart, and what a difference!
If the car sits for more than a few days its maintainer gets plugged in.
I have got in the habit with the NC that its maintainer gets plugged in as soon as the engine has cooled down.
I did the same with my Goldwing and it never required a new battery over the 6 years I owned it.