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Swingarm bushings/bearings??

Yes indeed the movement is clear to see. Must check mine soon too. That is not good. I have been noticing an intermittent buzzing vibe thru the pegs while riding that I could not explain. Someone had a thread about that on here too. Perhaps this worn bearing could be the cause. I will have to jack my bike up as I don't have a centrestand. I am baffled that there is play on the sprocket side as there is always oil from the chain in that area so water should not be a problem ?

Addendum.
I just managed to do a preliminary check on mine by using one of the centrestand mountings as a jacking point. Admittedly I was in a cramped space in my shed but initially I cannot find any play whatsoever and all feels solid. When I have the bike out later next week I will check it again properly, but for now I am happy enough. I also have a habit of occasionally spraying some lubricant in around the seals of the shock pivot levers and the swingarm pivot seals. They are not easy to get at, but some light spray lube directed with a long tube can get close enough to drench the seals.
 
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I removed the swing arm from the bike. I was surprised that you can have it off in about a half hour. I attached a photo showing that the bolt on the chain side was dry and there are wear marks visible on it and the inside of the bushing. There is a fair amount of play between the bolt and bushing. It's hard to judge if there is play in the bearings because the seal offers some resistance to manual motion. But, I think the bearing was lubed and seems to be OK.

It's almost as if the O.D. of the bolt is too small. The bolt also slides very easily, with play, into the frame bosses. If the bolt/nut was loose (which mine was not) this would double the amount of play at the rear of the swing arm.

This seems to be a case of poor lubing of the bolt, but even more so, sloppy manufacturing tolerances in the bolt and bushing diameters. My opinion of Honda quality has dropped a big notch here.

Unless someone has a better idea, I'm going to order both left and right side bushings along with a new bolt, install them well greased and properly torqued, then see what happens. :confused: Replacing the bearings themselves would take the repair to a whole different level, since I don't have the tools needed to replace them.

[video=youtube_share;cUjnwPuMJwg]https://youtu.be/cUjnwPuMJwg[/video]

100_9958.jpg
 
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Nortwestrider said:
It turns out that the nuts on the swingarm were loose and the bearings are fine.They said Honda has seen this a few times.Honda is not NOT going to cover it but they ( the dealer ) are,so no $$$ out of my pocket.They are waiting for a new rivit link for the chain and it will be ready to go !!.
Click to expand...

I thought this comment about waiting for a new rivet link was odd. You do not need to break the chain to remove the swing arm. In fact, if you wanted to replace an endless chain, removing the swing arm is how you would do it.
 
670cc said:
I thought this comment about waiting for a new rivet link was odd. You do not need to break the chain to remove the swing arm. In fact, if you wanted to replace an endless chain, removing the swing arm is how you would do it.
Click to expand...

Well the tech also got pissed off because he said I didn't clean my bike good enough and his table got dirty !!
So it doesn't surprise me about the chain link !!.
If it wasn't Dales shop I would be a little worried.


Live life,be yourself !!!!.
 
670cc said:
I removed the swing arm from the bike. I was surprised that you can have it off in about a half hour. I attached a photo showing that the bolt on the chain side was dry and there are wear marks visible on it and the inside of the bushing. There is a fair amount of play between the bolt and bushing. It's hard to judge if there is play in the bearings because the seal offers some resistance to manual motion. But, I think the bearing was lubed and seems to be OK.

It's almost as if the O.D. of the bolt is too small. The bolt also slides very easily, with play, into the frame bosses. If the bolt/nut was loose (which mine was not) this would double the amount of play at the rear of the swing arm.

This seems to be a case of poor lubing of the bolt, but even more so, sloppy manufacturing tolerances in the bolt and bushing diameters. My opinion of Honda quality has dropped a big notch here.

Unless someone has a better idea, I'm going to order both left and right side bushings along with a new bolt, install them well greased and properly torqued, then see what happens. :confused: Replacing the bearings themselves would take the repair to a whole different level, since I don't have the tools needed to replace them.

[video=youtube_share;cUjnwPuMJwg]https://youtu.be/cUjnwPuMJwg[/video]

View attachment 28556
Click to expand...

Imho the bolt does not need to be a very snug fit. Its main purpose is to tighten the bushings against the frame and once that is done its purpose has been served. One member from the UK forum found some clearance between the bushings and the frame. Normally the torqued bolt would squeeze the frame and take that up. However his reasoning was that in doing so a small amount of the torque applied would be taken up by the energy required to squeeze the frame. He accepted he was being picky but in the end he purchased some shims to take up the slack.

I believe that the purchases being mooted would be unnecessary. Personally I would lube as suggested and put everything back as required.

I managed to check mine for play today in an uncluttered space. There is no evidence of play at all, or at least none that I can discern, so I am leaving well enough alone and will continue to lube the relevant seals occasionally.
 
Griff said:
Imho the bolt does not need to be a very snug fit. Its main purpose is to tighten the bushings against the frame and once that is done its purpose has been served. One member from the UK forum found some clearance between the bushings and the frame. Normally the torqued bolt would squeeze the frame and take that up. However his reasoning was that in doing so a small amount of the torque applied would be taken up by the energy required to squeeze the frame. He accepted he was being picky but in the end he purchased some shims to take up the slack.

I believe that the purchases being mooted would be unnecessary. Personally I would lube as suggested and put everything back as required.

I managed to check mine for play today in an uncluttered space. There is no evidence of play at all, or at least none that I can discern, so I am leaving well enough alone and will continue to lube the relevant seals occasionally.
Click to expand...

I'll give you full credit for describing that the bolt's purpose is to squeeze the bushings and spacer tightly in the frame, but I did actually come to that same conclusion in my first thoughts of today. The problem here is that there are other frame cross members nearby, and the bolt can only squeeze the frame together so much. I believe the problem now may be the length of the spacer/bushing stack, not the diameters. Or alternately, the welding up of the frame itself in that area.

What I need to do next (have to go to work first :() is to install the bushings and spacers with the bolt torqued, but sans swing arm, and see if the bushings are still slopping around on the bolt. If so, I'll need to buy some shim or thrust washers to get a proper fit. Reassembly with added washers will be a little more tricky, but I hope it will be do-able.

If this does turn out to be the root cause of the free play, leaving it alone would be bad. That would allow the swing arm pivoting to ride on the bolt and bushing I.D., rather than the bushing O.D. and the bearing, defeating the whole purpose of having needle bearings in there. Over time the bolt O.D. and bushing I.D. would wear and lead to more free play.
 
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Well here's the smoking gun. With the swing arm installed but the bolt not torqued, there is a 1.25 mm gap that needs to be closed before the bushings will be held tight. With frame cross members just above and below the swing arm pivot, there is no way the frame will bend that much with the specified bolt torque. Thus, the bushings are just flopping around on the bolt shaft, and there is your play.

So, I need to find and install a shim washer of approximately 1 mm to 1.25 mm thickness and torque her down to see if the bushings will be held tight.

This is not wear. This is a manufacturing, frame jig, or design specification flaw. I suspect it affects more units than mine alone. Hmcp88 posted earlier in the thread that his bike had the same swing arm play. How many others are there? Bad Honda!

100_9963.jpg
 
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The question then is do you split the shim thickness by two and put one each side to avoid an offset of the chain ? The owner I mentioned from the other forum found a clearance of 0.7 mm. He made up a shim and put it on the brake side. He reckoned the offset was not sufficient to be a problem at 0.7mm. However 1.25 is considerably more.
 
Griff said:
The question then is do you split the shim thickness by two and put one each side to avoid an offset of the chain ? The owner I mentioned from the other forum found a clearance of 0.7 mm. He made up a shim and put it on the brake side. He reckoned the offset was not sufficient to be a problem at 0.7mm. However 1.25 is considerably more.
Click to expand...

I wondered that, too. But at this point my confidence is low that the swing arm is centered or straight anyway, even on a more properly built bike. I could think I was doing the right thing by splitting the difference, when perhaps offsetting it to favor one side or the other actually improves chain/wheel alignment. I'd have no way to measure it that accurately.

I guess the course of action will depend on what shim washers I can find.
 
I obtained an 18 gauge machine bushing of the proper diameter and arbitrarily chose to install it on the right side of the swing arm. The thickness is about 0.05 inches, or 1.25 mm. If I were to split the difference I would probably need to order thinner arbor shims since they aren't off-the-shelf items around my town. By not splitting the difference vs splitting the difference, I may have a swing arm offset 0.025" or 0.625 mm from center line, which I'm just not going to worry about. Swing arm bolt is torqued to 72 lb-ft. There is now no perceptible wiggle in the swing arm, and yet it moves quite freely up and down on it's needle bearings.

Time to reassemble it, but there will be no test ride since we are expecting 6-7" of wet snow tonight and tomorrow!

A note to all: Next time your back wheel is off the ground, check your swing arm for side to side play. I would be very interested to know how widespread the problem is, or if it's limited to certain model years or production periods.

100_9970.jpg
 
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670cc said:
I obtained an 18 gauge machine bushing of the proper diameter and arbitrarily chose to install it on the right side of the swing arm. The thickness is about 0.05 inches, or 1.25 mm. If I were to split the difference I would probably need to order thinner arbor shims since they aren't off-the-shelf items around my town. By not splitting the difference vs splitting the difference, I may have a swing arm offset 0.025" or 0.625 mm from center line, which I'm just not going to worry about. Swing arm bolt is torqued to 72 lb-ft. There is now no perceptible wiggle in the swing arm, and yet it moves quite freely up and down on it's needle bearings.

Time to reassemble it, but there will be no test ride since we are expecting 6-7" of wet snow tonight and tomorrow!

A note to all: Next time your back wheel is off the ground, check your swing arm for side to side play. I would be very interested to know how widespread the problem is, or if it's limited to certain model years or production periods.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the update. As mentioned I have checked mine and it is solid enough. I will check for smoothness of movement when I am installing the shock and then decide if shimming is required.
 
cyclegeo said:
Checked mine and found no play.
Could this be why some NC's go through chains quicker than others?
Click to expand...

One thing it does is make chain tension and alignment more difficult. On mine the wheel slop was only 1/8 inch side to side, but was enough to make a visible difference in the chain slack.

I did get 17,000 miles from the stock chain so I don't think chain life is affected, unless it's from poor alignment setting or tension setting. I always run mine on the loose side anyway.
 
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DirtFlier said:
Did you previously have a gap in that space now filled by the shims?
Click to expand...

Yes. If there was no gap, I would not be able to install a shim.

Explaining it further would be repeating what's already stated in the thread. Maybe I just don't understand the question, or it wasn't directed toward me.
 
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670cc said:
One thing it does is make chain tension and alignment more difficult. On mine the wheel slop was only 1/8 inch side to side, but was enough to make a visible difference in the chain slack.

I did get 17,000 miles from the stock chain so I don't think chain life is affected, unless it's from poor alignment setting or tension setting. I always run mine on the loose side anyway.
Click to expand...


What year is your bike?
 
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