NC750X DCT shift points. Is this normal??

[ste7ios]

Copy paste from the Honda R&D Technical Review (October 2012):

The dual-clutch transmission enables selection of two different AT modes: D mode that also takes into account fuel efficiency when driving in urban areas, and S mode that takes into account sporty riding on winding roads. In addition, there is also an MT mode than enables riders to manually shift to select an arbitrary gear position using Up/Down switch built into the left grip, for a total of three modes that can be selected.

NC700 series development focused in particular on differences between various driving environments and rider styles in D mode, and expanded the D range coverage to support a wider range of driving styles. That is to say, when D mode is selected, the optimal shift control is automatically performed in accordance with rider's driving style, enabling support of a wide range of driving styles, from relaxed riding urban and suburban areas to brisk FUN riding (Fig. 17, Fig. 18).

In addition, manual shifting can be performed using the Up/Down switch even when AT mode is selected, and control was incorporated that uses an auto return function to return to AT mode at the optimal timing according to the running status after manual shifting.

I thing the figures in this documents may tell you more...

Fig 18: In a mild riding pattern it will downshift / upshift more times than the brisk riding pattern, which will keep the same gear throughout an S turn. I'm not sure I'm describing this correctly... Forgive my bad english!

Try to download this PDF to have a better view for the whole thing! I can't copy-paste the pictures. https://www.hondarandd.jp/

 

[jangermann]

With pictures

 

[kpinvt]

Snipped...

Try to download this PDF to have a better view for the whole thing! I can't copy-paste the pictures. https://www.hondarandd.jp/

Thanks for the link. Many hours reading that stuff are soon to be wasted

 

[lootzyan]

... do you have the diagram in a better quality?

You're right. This snapshot is awful. Didn't notice. Usually images are acceptable but now I'm on my vacations, have different pdf viewer, blah blah blah.... Sorry about that.
Let's try one more time.

View attachment 24288

 

[jangermann]

Thanks.
Wow there is a lot of sensors!

 

[ST13Fred]

I ride a 700XD in the USA and ride solely in manual mode. In either D or S mode the bike never shifts where (I feel) it should,
so simply up shifting via the toggle is easy and much better for the bike. I do let the computer handle the down shifts under normal riding conditions,
but manually downshift on a few steep downhill turns. I enjoy riding the XD.

 

[Sunbeam35]

Hi L.B.S.
Thanks for you answer.

When doing a slow acceleration in "S" mode I was actually expecting the DCT to shift to 6 gear before the red line. If I just twisted the throttle fully open, I would expect it to hit the red line before shifting, and in this situation it would be ok (and it does).

The only thing that I am saying here is that the difference between D and S mode it too big. I feel that I can choose between to extremes.
In S mode we are talking about hitting the red line above 140 kmt before it shifts to 6 gear. In D mode it shift to 6 gear at 65kmt. It seems pretty extreme to me. Yes I know I manually can hit the shifter button, but that's not why I bought a DCT. I really miss a "normal mode".

Please don't tell me that I just can buy another bike... I know that I really like the NC750X and there is more positive stuff than negative, and I think that the solution that works for me, is the foot gear pedal add on option.

I really like my NC750, and the DCT 'box, BUT I do find the difference between D and S modes too great. Surely it can't be beyond Honda's wonderful technicians to come up with an optional re-mapping of the control unit that would raise the gear-change points in D mode to give a much more comfortable ride in town without slogging in D or revving the nuts of it in S!

 

[Therapy]

I really like my NC750, and the DCT 'box, BUT I do find the difference between D and S modes too great. Surely it can't be beyond Honda's wonderful technicians to come up with an optional re-mapping of the control unit that would raise the gear-change points in D mode to give a much more comfortable ride in town without slogging in D or revving the nuts of it in S!

I have 400 or so miles on my new 2013 model.
It seems the D and S modes are far apart to me too. I'll have to see though.
Maybe Honda will, instead of a D and an S, put a dial with D at one end and S at the other. Would be pretty easy I would think.
Then everybody would be happy.
Especially if it had a "Mood Stone" set in the center of it. Since that changes with the number of nutters out there with us. Right?

 

[Therapy]

I went 95 miles today and left it in D mode the whole time.
It downshifts fine. Not enough to burn the tire off (like I used to do when I was cool) but it adds to the slow-down. It seems to do it more/sooner if the brake is applied lightly.

It shifts real soon in D mode but if you crank it, it shifts near 5000. I did not open the throttle all the way. Seems to work just fine - the more throttle you give it the higher the revs before shifting. I feel it is the same in S mode, just higher still.

I do have a little clunk going from second to first when slowing. Maybe it will go away on mine too??

Love the bike even though I have never had a twin. I am glad it is smoother than I thought it was going to be. That was my biggest fear. Most of my miles are on inline fours.

 

[mtiberio]

as far as the learning thing goes, I do not think it is long term. By that, what I have noticed is, if you are in D mode (economy) and you pin the throttle, the bike will hold lower gears longer much like S mode rather than upshift "earlyish". As far as I can tell, this is the only adaptation of the shift points to my inputs that I have seen. And it goes back to normal right after...

 

[the4Dman]

Experienced riders will grin as they thumb a couple quick downshifts on corner entry, roll on the throttle, and let the DCT do all the upshifting work. With the DCT arrangement, changing gears is amazingly seamless."

I couldn't agree more, this is the exact description of how I operate it. one or 2 left thumbs going into the corner, right wrist, smile.....

in my opinion, it's like, you can keep using your flip-phone. it works perfectly well for making mobile calls. If you would like to try something new, that changes the game, well then.....smartphone (DCT)

so do you want to play a new game, or just stay playing the old game

Yes I still can drive a clutch/shift bike, and my impreza is a manual..... and I have a blast on my wife's FZ07

someone somewhere has an attitude that riding a DCT is done for some lack of skill.... I couldn't disagree more, it's not about a lack of skill, it's about a new type of ride.....

flip phone? smart phone? (or rotary dial (harley) princess) it's the rider's decision

but the DCT ride is awesome once you embrace it for what it is, 2 wheels, great balanced bike, unencumbered by the need to pay attention to one more thing.

 

[Therapy]

I couldn't agree more, this is the exact description of how I operate it. one or 2 left thumbs going into the corner, right wrist, smile.....

in my opinion, it's like, you can keep using your flip-phone. it works perfectly well for making mobile calls. If you would like to try something new, that changes the game, well then.....smartphone (DCT)

so do you want to play a new game, or just stay playing the old game

Yes I still can drive a clutch/shift bike, and my impreza is a manual..... and I have a blast on my wife's FZ07

someone somewhere has an attitude that riding a DCT is done for some lack of skill.... I couldn't disagree more, it's not about a lack of skill, it's about a new type of ride.....

flip phone? smart phone? (or rotary dial (harley) princess) it's the rider's decision

but the DCT ride is awesome once you embrace it for what it is, 2 wheels, great balanced bike, unencumbered by the need to pay attention to one more thing.

I must say this.

WELL SAID!

 

[scotseam]

I own a 2015 nc700xd and have only 750 miles so I don't have many miles or experience. Having qualified my opinion, I think that the ECU doesn't learn as much as it responds to throttle input. I find myself manually shifting to 6th after a brisk acceleration in the lower gears. The system is very good but not perfect. Just my .02 cents. Thanks for listening.

 

[Fenyvessy]

I have an NC750XD, 2014. It's only a few hundred kilometers driven, but I think the DCT gearbox behaves strangely. If the gas is treated with care, it works beautifully in D mode and responds to +/- switches as well. But if, for example. I want to overtake a speed of 50, and I give rapid gas, then it switch back to fourth grade from five (that's fine), but after overtaking it stucks in the 4th gear at speeds up to 100-120 / 6-7,000 rpm as well and the +/- switches do nothing, they are not respond. This condition persists until I slow down to a speed when the DCT is to be switch down in 3rd. After that it has been operating normally, and it can be instrued by the +/- switches, too. I did not tried with S mode yet. I found a workaround only: if I switch to fully manual mode (MT), then I can override the 4th grade with the +/- switches, then after it is back to AT mode, working fine again until the next overtake... Do you have any suggestions or ideas, please?

 

[Brillot2000]

I have an NC750XD, 2014. It's only a few hundred kilometers driven, but I think the DCT gearbox behaves strangely. If the gas is treated with care, it works beautifully in D mode and responds to +/- switches as well. But if, for example. I want to overtake a speed of 50, and I give rapid gas, then it switch back to fourth grade from five (that's fine), but after overtaking it stucks in the 4th gear at speeds up to 100-120 / 6-7,000 rpm as well and the +/- switches do nothing, they are not respond. This condition persists until I slow down to a speed when the DCT is to be switch down in 3rd. After that it has been operating normally, and it can be instrued by the +/- switches, too. I did not tried with S mode yet. I found a workaround only: if I switch to fully manual mode (MT), then I can override the 4th grade with the +/- switches, then after it is back to AT mode, working fine again until the next overtake... Do you have any suggestions or ideas, please?

The answer is simple, use "S-Mode". "D-Mode" on the NC700X does not behave much differently. In this mode the gear shifts are much too early into higher gears and causes the engine to lug when throttled quickly or downshift up to 2 gears down when the throttle is cracked wide-open. "S-Mode" will keep the engine revs up and in appropriate gear for that speed, if you ask me.

I am certain that using "S-Mode" will remedy your issue and increase your riding experience.

Here's how I use the 3 different Modes:

• D-Mode - On the highway/motorways and when not constantly stopping & going.
• S-mode - Is my "GOTO" mode then riding the bike over 90% of the time. It behaves a lot like a motorcycle should and it more responsive.
• MT-Mode - While lane splitting/filtering in all traffic conditions and other slow-speed maneuvering which requires a single gear.

I hope this information was helpful for you.

 

[Fenyvessy]

Thank you for your prompt reply. I will give a try with S-mode. I use the bike mainly in the city, so the D-mode behavior seems fine sofar, except the above written...

 

[Therapy]

I disagree.

If the transmission does not shift to gear 5 and then 6 after the overtake and throttle is backed off then you have an issue with it. If it does not respond to up or down shift attempts, you have an issue with it.

Not once has it not immediately shifted upon pushing one of the buttons, but then I only have 2000 miles on mine.

A couple of times after a pass and I have backed off the throttle and thought it took "a while" to up-shift but I figure it is just waiting to make sure I am really done with my overtake.

It may be how I understand what you wrote but I don't really think that is the case.

 

[Brillot2000]

I disagree.

If the transmission does not shift to gear 5 and then 6 after the overtake and throttle is backed off then you have an issue with it. If it does not respond to up or down shift attempts, you have an issue with it.

Not once has it not immediately shifted upon pushing one of the buttons, but then I only have 2000 miles on mine.

A couple of times after a pass and I have backed off the throttle and thought it took "a while" to up-shift but I figure it is just waiting to make sure I am really done with my overtake.

It may be how I understand what you wrote but I don't really think that is the case.

The DCT System is equipped with a feature where the PCM (Powertrain Control Module) tracks the operation parameters and creates trends. The system will "Learn", formulate predictions based on the trends and then create shifting schedules base off your riding style. It may take quite awhile for the bike to gather up all this data to and "Adjust" to your riding style. This all goes in the background without the riders knowledge. I think that's what's going on here. The unit is not "Defective" per say, just does not have enough data if the bike is fairly new and not riding often.

In the beginning NaNCy behaved strangely, similar to a 2 year old child and had a few shifting tantrums in the beginning. As I racked up the miles over a period of time, the bike was more in tune with my thoughts before I could perform those actions. I would prepare to push the "-" button during braking and NaNCy would make the downshift just as I laid my thumb on the button. You just have to give the bike more time to get used to to your riding style and gather all its data. The system will learn and adjust to your riding style.

Here's a link to so more information from Honda regarding DCT from awhile ago, DCT Q&A.

 

[lootzyan]

The DCT System is equipped with a feature where the PCM (Powertrain Control Module) tracks the operation parameters and creates trends. The system will "Learn", formulate predictions based on the trends and then create shifting schedules base off your riding style. It may take quite awhile for the bike to gather up all this data to and "Adjust" to your riding style. This all goes in the background without the riders knowledge. I think that's what's going on here. The unit is not "Defective" per say, just does not have enough data if the bike is fairly new and not riding often.

In the beginning NaNCy behaved strangely, similar to a 2 year old child and had a few shifting tantrums in the beginning. As I racked up the miles over a period of time, the bike was more in tune with my thoughts before I could perform those actions. I would prepare to push the "-" button during braking and NaNCy would make the downshift just as I laid my thumb on the button. You just have to give the bike more time to get used to to your riding style and gather all its data. The system will learn and adjust to your riding style.

Here's a link to so more information from Honda regarding DCT from awhile ago, DCT Q&A.

That's a complete nonsense, discussed and disproved here couple of time in a past.
No reason to do that again.

 

[Brillot2000]

That's a complete nonsense, discussed and disproved here couple of time in a past.
No reason to do that again.

You must not be an engineer. Technologies that can use data to make complex decisions do exist. Planes can fly themselves and cars can park themselves now.

The PCM used on Honda's DCT System is an embedded computer and is far more sophisticated than you are giving credit for.

I am truly sorry that you have closed your mind to the notion that technology has accelerated and suppressed your expectations.