Government Shutdown

[anglachel]

I don't know the right words to use to say this. I'm not taking sides either way because I try to stay away from that. The Rebublicans do not want Obamacare to be implemented. They do not want it written into this bill. It a congressional dispute over whether Obamacare should be defunded or delayed as a condition of continued government funding. That's primarily what this is over. Someone else correct me if I have stated this incorrectly.

It's a little more complicated than that... on both sides.

Republicans on the far right (really crazy far right for those of you across the pond) want to defund Obama care (or Affordable Care Act depending on your politics and political correctness) they are a small group in the house, but they have silently threatened that if they don't get their way they will vote to have the speaker of the house replaced... John Boehner (a name that is totally appropriate to say in polite company so long as you can do it without giggling to yourself) doesn't want to lose his job as speaker of the house, so he has basically resigned to only put up bills for a vote on the house floor if they can be passed by a republican majority, and thus the radicals in his party don't challenge him.

The Dems don't want anything to stop Obamacare before the Jan 1 2014 deadline when most of the law takes effect. They presume (as the republicans do too) that once people start having health care, they are going to want to keep it and the law will be almost impossible to reverse, but it will finally open up the possibility to go back and fix some things, and republicans might be willing to talk about it without trying to repeal it.

Of course the far right is only in office because gerrymandering created districts that were so conservatives that normal republicans couldn't win a primary, and the crazy's could (did I mention I live just north of Michele Bachmann's district?)...
If Boehner could in theory end this any time by bringing a bill with no mention of Obamacare to the house floor, but doing so would likely cost him his job as speaker, and possibly cause the party to split with the far right (tea party) doing their own thing, and thanks to the gerrymandering of districts being successfully re-elected for the next 5-6 years until the next redistricting, when who knows what will happen.



or simply put, it's a crappy political thing... brought about by other crappy political things... brought about by people gaming the system, for crappy political reasons. -this also explains the vast majority of american history, especially if you toss in something about an overzealous media...


And in ~10 years we'll look back on this and consider it the "good times" because odds are we'll manage to find a way to make it worse... (or maybe our memories aren't that great and we'll forget about how dysfunctional our government is today and assume it's something new for 2024...)

 

[CoopaLoop]

or simply put, it's a crappy political thing... brought about by other crappy political things... brought about by people gaming the system, for crappy political reasons. -this also explains the vast majority of american history

Well said!

 

[Goose]

All true and correct but I'd like to add one thing: The Obama care was passed by Congress, signed by the president and found to be constitutional by the Supreme Court. Now a small group of extremist are trying to subvert the constitution (the document that outlines the procedures above) because they don't like the law. These people are taking actions that will do enormous harm to the United States, my county.

I'm not anti conservative, I believe a political system can't be healthy with both the left and the right having a voice. I'm just anti crazy and these people are nuts.

Goose

It's a little more complicated than that... on both sides.

Republicans on the far right (really crazy far right for those of you across the pond) want to defund Obama care (or Affordable Care Act depending on your politics and political correctness) they are a small group in the house, but they have silently threatened that if they don't get their way they will vote to have the speaker of the house replaced... John Boehner (a name that is totally appropriate to say in polite company so long as you can do it without giggling to yourself) doesn't want to lose his job as speaker of the house, so he has basically resigned to only put up bills for a vote on the house floor if they can be passed by a republican majority, and thus the radicals in his party don't challenge him.

The Dems don't want anything to stop Obamacare before the Jan 1 2014 deadline when most of the law takes effect. They presume (as the republicans do too) that once people start having health care, they are going to want to keep it and the law will be almost impossible to reverse, but it will finally open up the possibility to go back and fix some things, and republicans might be willing to talk about it without trying to repeal it.

Of course the far right is only in office because gerrymandering created districts that were so conservatives that normal republicans couldn't win a primary, and the crazy's could (did I mention I live just north of Michele Bachmann's district?)...
If Boehner could in theory end this any time by bringing a bill with no mention of Obamacare to the house floor, but doing so would likely cost him his job as speaker, and possibly cause the party to split with the far right (tea party) doing their own thing, and thanks to the gerrymandering of districts being successfully re-elected for the next 5-6 years until the next redistricting, when who knows what will happen.



or simply put, it's a crappy political thing... brought about by other crappy political things... brought about by people gaming the system, for crappy political reasons. -this also explains the vast majority of american history, especially if you toss in something about an overzealous media...


And in ~10 years we'll look back on this and consider it the "good times" because odds are we'll manage to find a way to make it worse... (or maybe our memories aren't that great and we'll forget about how dysfunctional our government is today and assume it's something new for 2024...)

 

[JamesD]

So much for the trip to the Black Hills. Oh well... it's going to snow before the weekend anyway so that was probably going to fall through anyway.

 

[OriginalRocket]

For us across the pond, we do look at the situation as a little odd. One of the top 2 most powerful countries in the world and your pulling yourselves to pieces and no one is in the streets demanding action.....

However, right now this stuff is internal..... It only affects you guys.

18th October is when the debt ceiling has to be passed, and 19th October is when you don't pay your bills to China, EU and Japan. And no one has any idea what happens then, but it almost certainly leads to events which make the banking crisis look very small indeed. Certainly your cost of imports rises through the roof and your exports fall off a cliff.

I ***really*** hope that this doesn't happen. I'm a Brit working for an American company and right now I can't even count on it existing in 6 months.

You won't see mass rioting. We strive to be a country run by people representing the people. We "riot" with voting. We are a strange country indeed, we don't give a damn about our fellow citizen, but are extremely patriotic. We give billions to charities to help the less fortunate, but we won't agree to nationally fund a universal health care.

We elected these guys to push our agendas, and find a compromise that works for the majority, and benefites the most possible people. When this deadlock finally passes, and congress is up for reelection, expect sweeping changes.

As for running out of money on the 18th, I'd figure the rest of the world that we fund and feed will start taking interest in our inept ability to compromise, and possibly demand we fix ourselves.


As for me, the part Im not liking right now is the closed national parks, I had 2 rides planned, that I'll have to change in the coming weeks. Grrr.... Just want to relax on the last few days of a riding season that is coming to a close.

 

[OldJeff]

So if we had a government shutdown after the Affordable Health Care Act was fully implemented, how would that work? One thing that bothers me the most about the AHCA is after watching the complete dysfunction of the Federal government over the last decade or so, do I really want it to manage our nation's healthcare?

Last thought, since the government is shutdown now, can we just get rid of it for good? I've long thought that Washington DC was the worst problem the USA has and without it, things would work much better.....

 

[SergeantChuck]

I was talking last night to a guy that works for TSA. He is the head IT guy for TSA HQ in Little Rock. All the office people that work there had four hours to get their stuff together last night and go home until further notice. One of these people primary functions is to process pay. He said the TSA personnel will still get paid but it is a modified method. There not exactly sure how this will screw things up yet. But I couldn't imagine going through security at an airport with an upset TSA agent. They already seem kind of tightly wound.

During our conversation we also came to agree on something. We would both like to see an agreement reached and I would suggest the Republicans present a modified bill that states "there are NO exemptions to the affordable care act". That includes the President, Congress, and Senators. If it is a good program then he should have no problem signing off on that. If it is not, well we have our answer. Since I'm retired military this would affect me and has already affected my retirement medical benefits.

 

[JamesD]

I'm actually all for this shutdown. Democrats are used to the press coming to their rescue so they think they can always get what they want. Dems need to be more willing to negotiate.

Besides, taxes are only supposed to originate in the House but the AHCA originated in the Senate. It shouldn't be implemented at all because that is unconstitutional.

 

[670cc]

So much for the trip to the Black Hills. Oh well... it's going to snow before the weekend anyway so that was probably going to fall through anyway.

Well you can see Mt Rushmore easily without paying the $11 to park, so no change there. Custer State Park is beautiful riding territory, and it will be open without Fed support. So, I'd say your trip could still be on if not for the snow.

Greg

 

[anglachel]

So if we had a government shutdown after the Affordable Health Care Act was fully implemented, how would that work? One thing that bothers me the most about the AHCA is after watching the complete dysfunction of the Federal government over the last decade or so, do I really want it to manage our nation's healthcare?

Last thought, since the government is shutdown now, can we just get rid of it for good? I've long thought that Washington DC was the worst problem the USA has and without it, things would work much better.....

Health Care would likely be deemed essential... but even if it were not, the insurance in the exchanges is coming from private insurance companies that would not be affected by the shutdown. The exchanges themselves might be affected in some states where they are being run by the federal government because the states refused to setup their own exchange, in many states however the state is running the exchange (which is of little consolation when you are in MN where we have shut down our state government twice in the last 15 years) and a federal shutdown wouldn't impact them.

The impact of a shutdown after Obamacare would be very similar to a shutdown before Obamacare, lots of important things would stop functioning, but you'd still get treated for your wounds in the hospital, and they'd collect afterwards through your private insurance company, and if they weren't able to for some reason because of the shutdown, they'd collect after the shutdown was over...

I was talking last night to a guy that works for TSA. He is the head IT guy for TSA HQ in Little Rock. All the office people that work there had four hours to get their stuff together last night and go home until further notice. One of these people primary functions is to process pay. He said the TSA personnel will still get paid but it is a modified method. There not exactly sure how this will screw things up yet. But I couldn't imagine going through security at an airport with an upset TSA agent. They already seem kind of tightly wound.

During our conversation we also came to agree on something. We would both like to see an agreement reached and I would suggest the Republicans present a modified bill that states "there are NO exemptions to the affordable care act". That includes the President, Congress, and Senators. If it is a good program then he should have no problem signing off on that. If it is not, well we have our answer. Since I'm retired military this would affect me and has already affected my retirement medical benefits.

The Affordable healthcare act states that congress and their staff will get their health care through the exchanges.

However, they will be given money to pay for it by the government to compensate them for the loss of the benefits of their current health care option. One of the options put forth by the house was to fund the government, make it so congress and their staff had to pay for their own healthcare, and remove the universal mandate. I think it might have stood a chance of making it through if it weren't for that last part.

 

[anglachel]

All true and correct but I'd like to add one thing: The Obama care was passed by Congress, signed by the president and found to be constitutional by the Supreme Court. Now a small group of extremist are trying to subvert the constitution (the document that outlines the procedures above) because they don't like the law. These people are taking actions that will do enormous harm to the United States, my county.

I'm not anti conservative, I believe a political system can't be healthy with both the left and the right having a voice. I'm just anti crazy and these people are nuts.

Goose

I was trying my best not to take sides in explaining these things... even against the crazies...

I do have my basis, I do think that Obamacare is a good thing, and so do most americans, so long as you don't' call it Obamacare and call it the affordable care act instead.
They like it even more when you explain the provisions of it to them...
The distaste for Obamacare from a few people being adamantly opposed to it, and occasionally spouting non-sense... Luckily they always call it "Obamacare" when the do it, so if the rest of the world were to just start calling it the Affordable care act, we'd all move on pretty quickly.

 

[Fuzzy]

This is a Motorcycle forum I really enjoy. I have my own strong opinions on what is going on in Washington right now but will try not to express them here. I suggest we close this thread and take our politics to another venue.

 

[670cc]

This is a Motorcycle forum I really enjoy. I have my own strong opinions on what is going on in Washington right now but will try not to express them here. I suggest we close this thread and take our politics to another venue.

All we need to do to end the thread is to stop posting . . . .

Greg

 

[SergeantChuck]

I appoligize for starting it. I stated in my first sentance that I did not bring it up for the politics behind the issues and was demonstrating my concerns for those affect with the loss of thier job/income.

I guess I should have know better.

 

[Jguarfn28]

I just wanted to commend the forum on being civil on a subject that all too often gets hot fast. Well reasoned explanations to our international friends is always a good thing. Thanks for keeping it cool.

 

[670cc]

I appoligize for starting it. I stated in my first sentance that I did not bring it up for the politics behind the issues and was demonstrating my concerns for those affect with the loss of thier job/income.

I guess I should have know better.

No worries; your intentions were admirable.

Greg

 

[foreveraboy]

I feel bad for the situation the US people is having now. I'd have to agree with OCR to elect the true representative, the one who really work to better the people's well being, not his/her own.

 

[n30r3l0ad3d]

They are all equally worthless in my mind. No good will come from this, but they will do what they want. Nothing we can do about it.

 

[anglachel]

I just wanted to commend the forum on being civil on a subject that all too often gets hot fast. Well reasoned explanations to our international friends is always a good thing. Thanks for keeping it cool.

Perhaps the nicest people really are on the hondas

 

[MZ5]

It is interesting-- Some of the areas that need not be shuttered:

National Parks. Those are user-fee areas, so they don't have to close (the Antideficiency Act prevents the gov't from spending money it hasn't appropriated, but user fees aren't appropriated so it doesn't really apply to them. At least that's how I understand most Departments are 'interpreting' things). The chief executive or his appointee must have closed them? (shrug)

Gov't websites. They're not actually shut down, so they're not saving any money. They just changed the homepages to say they're closed and you can't get anywhere else. The chief executive or his appointees must have ordered this? (shrug)

The IRS isn't processing refunds, as I understand it, but they're still collecting. No idea of the origins of this decision, but it seems a bit like the above two situations.

I can't think of a single entitlement program that is negatively impacted, apart from _perhaps_ delaying new sign-ups. I believe that entitlement programs are generally funded via their enabling legislation, rather than yearly appropriations, but I may well be wrong about that.

The Affordable Care Act/Obamacare seems to me to be a very European-style concept. I DON'T want to change into a European country (no offense meant to any of our fine European members). If I thought that was a better system, I should happily emigrate. It has been correctly pointed out that America is filled with extremely generous and charitable people. That system has and does work well. I very much prefer that to a system of ever-increasing entitlements.

I feel very bad for the furloughed federal employees. I am not as confident as many that they'll be given back-pay this time, although it really depends upon how this particular fight comes out. I also feel bad for those who have been ordered to go to work, but who will not be paid, have potentially had a portion of their benefits (dental and vision insurance, as I understand) suspended unless they choose to pay directly for them, and may not use any sort of leave until an appropriation is passed for their Department or Agency. The latter group I expect will get their pay, but it could be a while this time. Not everyone has as much money saved away for a rainy day as they 'should' or probably want to.