Electric Motorcycles - Brammo & Zero

[Fuzzy]

A few random thoughts:

Buying electricity at home for your vehicle circumvents the tax collection system to pay for highway maintenance. When electric vehicles become widespread, the tax collection system will change, and your electric vehicle will loose one of the cost elements currently working in its favor.

A couple states are already investigating charging a mileage tax on vehicles. I think California will probably be first having pushed the hardest for alternative fuel vehicles.

 

[pprior]

I almost bought a zero before I bought my 700x. I need about 200 HW miles however to be able to make the rides round trip that I make, so I'm hoping in the next couple years they'll get there and then I'm definitely buying one.

It's not for the economics of it (never make that up in gas costs), but just the sheer fun factor and no maintenance.

 

[670cc]

The Zero DS appeals most to me. If these do well with no gearbox, I wouldn't want a six speed. Plus, there'd be less to go wrong.

OTOH, I could just buy a used 200cc dual sport for $2000 and have just as much fun.

Brillot2000, let us know how it goes. There are only a few dealers within 300 miles of here where I could do a demo ride. It

 

[Brillot2000]

This would be a better number. $2.25 X 3,636.364 =8,181.819

So for me the cost difference just isn't worth the sacrifices. It's pretty tough to justify electric vehicles when your looking at the numbers but you buy one for totally different reasons. One day though when battery technology improves we will all be on electric somethings.

California fuel cost are in the highest in the United States, so may number are correct for my region in the past year average.

Since that explosion at the Exxon Mobil refinery last week, fuel cost have jumped more than 20¢/gal since the incident. I paid $3.19/gal to fill up NaNCy yesterday. I can imagine the it will continue to raise for many months. By that time we will be in the Summer and at $4.00/gal again.

 

[mreric]

gas price will continue to drop and rise in our lifetime. i think it can top over $5 per gallon in our lifetime.

 

[670cc]

gas price will continue to drop and rise in our lifetime. i think it can top over $5 per gallon in our lifetime.

Electricity prices will rise, too.

 

[Fuzzy]

California fuel cost are in the highest in the United States, so may number are correct for my region in the past year average.

Since that explosion at the Exxon Mobil refinery last week, fuel cost have jumped more than 20¢/gal since the incident. I paid $3.19/gal to fill up NaNCy yesterday. I can imagine the it will continue to raise for many months. By that time we will be in the Summer and at $4.00/gal again.

I paid $2.06 to fill up my truck this afternoon. Hope you guys get your money's worth for all those extra taxes.

 

[mreric]

Electricity prices will rise, too.

Agreed, but i think there is infinite way of making electricity efficiency and cleanly for cheap,

Compared to a dirty, dangerous and costly thing such as petroleum. You can even get cancer from oil changes, there is big warning level there. What is the price of cancer and healthcare for you and society as whole ? Oil is just a dirty product, electric still the ultimate vehicle

 

[ctrlburn]

Hi All!

Hollywood Electrics is well respected as a dealer - often does better customer support that Zero direct.

Anyone would do themselves a favor to test drive an Electric Motorcycle.

I bought one. My decision on "Economics" went "Can I afford one?" My decision on "Range" went "Can I get to and from work?"
It is expensive for the function - (but so are 95% of cell phones and they sell in droves) prices will drop and range will go up. I commute 50 miles round trip with a easy spare 20-30 miles for for excursions as needed. It is not a weekend tour bike - but day to day it commutes with a charge from my wall socket at a rate of about 4-5 minutes per mile and be ready every morning. Faster charging is an upgrade to nearly charge in an hour is available $$$.

Mandatory noise requirements kick in in a few years - to warn pedestrians.
I've only startled bicyclists, now I take care to keep them distant or informed.
Cars known I'm there just as much as they known I'm there on my Harley (not at all).

All air cooled - No radiator.

No fuel tax - but expect higher registration fees. Most states are ramping up the fees on Electrics to compensate for the loss... but they do not discount my automotive diesel for the loss (trucks damage roads more so diesel is taxed higher... mathematically motorcycles do zero damage in road wear formulas.) but I am used to inequity.


The bike is not silent - think TIE Fighter not tablesaw under throttle or regeneration braking. Hard throttle is a groan like a well stressed electric motor that warrants no pity.

Right now charging in Madison WI is FREE, but I rarely bother saving those a few nickles. A full charge from empty is only about a dollar.


The only maintenance that does not start with the words "CHECK" comes up every 4,000 miles:
Front Brake Lever Pivot Shaft - Apply silicon grease lightly.
Kickstand Pivots - Apply silicon grease lightly.

Everything else is based on the condition, worn tires, brakes or belt. Battery is targeted for 200,000 miles to only lose 10% of range.

How soon will electrics be ready for you? Sooner than you think.
EV is not winning Isle of Man... but they are dominating on Pikes Peak.
The Mitsubishi MiEV Evolution III EV completed the Pikes Peak challenge in 9:08, over 40 seconds faster than the previous year's EV record.
Electric Motorcycles - Overall fastest Modified 2013 Lightning Electric Superbike finished just 2 seconds slower than the 2013 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-10R - across classes.


The 2015 Zero SR has 106 ft-lbs of torque.
The 2015 Zero SR weights 452 lbs at curb.
0.23 lb.-ft/lb

Compare:
https://rideapart.com/articles/12-high-torque-motorcycles
The 2014 KTM 1290 Super Duke R makes 106 lb.-ft. (rpm figures unreleased). That’s more than pretty much every super-sport available, all without a fairing or tucked riding position. Absolutely mental.
At only 446 pounds (wet), the all-new Super Duke has a torque/weight ratio of 0.24 lb.-ft./lb.

The Zero SR has that torque everywhere in the powerband, not at just an undisclosed rpm.

I ride a "2013 Zero S" and it has about half the engine (68 torques) of the SR - which is plenty for my "Rural to Urban Commute" - with battery rated to 309,000 miles before loss of 20% capacity.

Comparison to gasoline on power per pound or cost or convenience is one thing - compare to gasoline in CO2 per mile (including charging power source - if it is not an older Chinese coal plant)) and EV wins.
Compare to gasoline on time to manufacture - 300,000 years to build gasoline. Even with just a 10 panel solar I'm charged in a day.
Compare to CO - Leave a gasoline cycle idling the garage and you might be dead in the morning... EV? At worse, only the battery will be dead in the morning.



Still put all that math and "logic" aside.

Take one for a test drive... hell if in the Dane County area, trade with me for a few days this spring,summer or fall.

It might not be the bike for you... but what it does will blow your mind.

 

[670cc]

Great post, ctrlburn! Thanks for all the info and insight. One thing, though, is I didn't see any mention of horsepower when comparing to other bikes. Torque is nice and all, but means absolutely nothing without an RPM number. For example, 1000 pounds feet of torque sounds great but at 10 RPM it's only about 2 horsepower - less than a 50cc scooter. Does Zero post horsepower numbers, or least what the torque is at certain RPMs?

I was in Dane county last summer for a WingDing. Wished I could have taken you up on the test ride offer.

 

[Brillot2000]

Many of you want to know how it went on my test rides on Saturday. Without further ado.

I was able to ride both the 2014 Brammo Empulse R and 2015 Zero SR.

BRAMMO EMPLUSE R:



My initial reaction was that it reminded me a bit of a Honda CB500F with its ergonomics and the tubular upset handlebars. I would call the Empulse R a "Naked Bike" more than a sports bike.

The Brammo has a traditional 6-speed transmission with a multiple-plate clutch like the most common modern motorcycles do. When I finally got to ride it, I found out that the bike would start off and accelerate just fine from a complete stop in either 2nd or 3rd gear, per the suggestion of the dealer rep. The clutch did not require "Feathering" to get the bike rolling. It did not require to be used at all, however I used it to get the full experience. All you would have to do is select the desired gear from a complete stop and then twist the throttle to get moving. I did swift into a couple of gears during my test ride, at times it really was not required.

While I was riding it round, it feel like I was on either a 500 or 600 cc bike as the weight of Brammo was about 480 lbs. The acceleration just fine in the first 3 gears that I used riding around the street of Hollywood, it was quite impressive to say the least. At stops, I found it a little "Weird" not to hear an engine idling. The acceleration was instantaneous, you were catapulted off the line and reaches speeds quickly. The best way to describe this experience when you were a kid on your bicycle going a down steep hill and flying through the air that seemed like a 100 MPH at the time. Braking was great and predictable with the Brembo dual front disc and a single rear disc.

PROS:

• Sport Bike Styling.
• Fully Street Legal.
• Easy to Ride.
• 6-Speed Transmission.
• Has a Clutch.
• Chain Drive.
• Liquid Cooling.
• Can use any Type 2 EV Charging Stations.
• Range of 80 to 128 Miles per Manufacturer's Specs.
• Virtually Maintenance Free.

CONS:

• Asking price - $17-19k
• No Longer Available - Company bought out by Polaris Motorcycles.
• Crunky Transmission - Requires too much force needed to operate.
• Clutch Operation - Non-conversational, no feathering required.
• Lighting - Should have a LED Headlight and LED Turn Signals around.
• Limited Range - Manufacturer's quoted ranges are nearly "Dead On".
• Maintenance - Instrument cluster flashes "Service Required Codes".
• Have to bring a Type 2 EV Charging Cable with you everywhere.
• Storage - None available, there used to be optional hard bags offered before the company was sold.

OVERALL RATING:

3.5 of 5 and "WORTH A TRY".

ZERO SR:



My initial reaction was that it reminded me a bit of a Honda CB300F with its ergonomics and the tubular upset handlebars. I would classify the Zero SR a "Naked Bike".

What attracted to me to the Zero SR over the Zero S was that it has a 0-60 MPH acceleration of about 3.3 seconds over the quote 5.2 seconds of the "S" model. That is quite impressive for a 414 lbs of motorcycle to reach that speed in that short amount of time. Also 2015 models come standard with Bosch ABS.

While I was riding it round, I feel like I was a 500 cc bike as the weight of Zero SR was about 414 lbs. There's no transmission on any of Zero's Motorcycles, just 1 gear sort of speak. Once I twisted the throttle to see what this bike could do, it shot out of the gate faster than a race horse. I nearly blow through a STOP sign, I grabbed the brakes and stopped just in time. The ABS unit got a workout on my account. The single front and rear disc brakes were plenty to meet the requirements and then some.

The suspension and handling on the Hollywood streets were up to the challenge and met it very will. Every chance I got to accelerate quickly, I took it. The "SR" did not disappoint on its delivery and I found myself smiling ear to ear quite often.

In the place of a transmission there are 3 different ride modes available, ECO, SPORT, and CUSTOM. ECO is quite self explanatory, SPORT pull out all the stops for the full experience, Custom is user configurable through the Zero Motorcycles App used on a smartphone via Bluetooth.

PROS:

• Naked Bike Styling.
• Fully Street Legal.
• Easy to Ride.
• Belt Drive.
• Can use any 120 V outlet to charge.
• Range of 77 to 151 Miles per Manufacturer's Specs.
• Fast charging units available that cuts charge times in half.
• Type 2 Charging Station Adapters Available.
• Option "Power Tank" available to increase range.
• Virtually Maintenance Free.

CONS:

• Asking price - $17.3-19.8k
• Color - Only Available in Red.
• Lighting - Should have a LED Headlight and LED Turn Signals around.
• Charging - Additional Items to carry for charging. Optional Quick Charger available for $600.
• Power - Optional Power Tank Upgrade available for $2500.
• Storage - One small pouch big enough for a lunch. Optional Givi Top Boxes available for $399.

OVERALL RATING:

4.5 of 5 and "POSSIBLE BUY".

CONCLUSION:

These bikes were a lot of fun to ride. I only wish that I had the opportunity to ride these bikes a some "Twisty Roads" to check out the handling more under these conditions. Riding these bikes types can be a "Nerve Racking" experience if you do not plan out your route carefully. The infrastructure for Electric Vehicles has not been that widely expanded outside of major metropolitan areas and common tourist locations. As it stands now, the electric motorcycle is a "Novelty" and is in its "Infancy". An Electric Motorcycle is best suited for "City and Commuter" use at this time. It is my option that EV MCs will become more mainstream in the next 5-10 years. At that time, all the major motorcycle manufactures will have their own versions of these.

 

[JDE]

Thanks for the detailed write up. I've thought about getting a Zero before. Like others, price and range are a factor that swayed me to the NC. I've got a 100mile round trip commute and I'm not the lightest rider out there either, so the range is really what's keeping me from getting one right now. Maybe after we can move closer to my work I'll get one but for now oil changes and fuelling up the NC is the way to go.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[anglachel]

I like the idea of the zero, and it was a serious consideration vs the other bikes I was looking at, then I found the NC, and it quickly became the front runner.

I'd take the Zero over the Brammo, if I'm going to go electric I was a electric drive train, not an electric power plant with a traditional gasoline transmission...

Electric on a motorcycle makes more sense than electric on a car for me, because batteries can freeze and I wouldn't be riding the bike when it's cold out.
(Lithium Ion batteries freeze at about -40 (C or F) so my -9F (-22C) this morning is still a ways off from permanent damage, but they still don't like the cold)
The best?and worst?places to drive your electric car | Science/AAAS | News


A motorcycle can sit on a charger (in a maintenance mode that will let the batteries get cold but not to cold, and keep them about 40-50% to prolong their life) in the garage (all of 19F this morning (-8C)) during the worse of the temperature extremes.

Maybe next time around Batteries, electric Motors, and Motor controllers, will have improved enough to justify an electric bike... Maybe by then we'll have moved to an in-wheel motor, or maybe unsprung weight concerns will keep the motor mounted some where else... perhaps motorcycles will end up not making the jump to electric in a meaningful way because how the infrastructure gets built for cars (battery swapping stations?) making it impractical for motorcycles to run on the same infrastructure... Only time will tell, but it'll be interesting to watch.

 

[mreric]

I would buy the new zero if the price is right, is not like i cannot afford it, is just that i dont think the price is right for what it is, down at the end, it is still a bike.

I like the 2015 model of the zero over the 2014. they have added better suspension, better brakes and better tire. but they have kept the price the same as the year before.

Zero Motors need to out source the battery production in order to make this bike cheaper. they make the battery too and that is what keeping expensive IMO , perhaps they havent look, or haven found somone willing to make a good quality battery.


I would buy one if the price for the SR was more like 9k or less OTD. even with the current range and charge time it would work for me and most people. average american commute 20 each way. so 40 miles + errands is more then enough and should leave me with enough juice .

lets hope in the next year they can start cutting the price.

 

[Brillot2000]

I would buy the new zero if the price is right, is not like i cannot afford it, is just that i dont think the price is right for what it is, down at the end, it is still a bike.

I like the 2015 model of the zero over the 2014. they have added better suspension, better brakes and better tire. but they have kept the price the same as the year before.

I would buy one if the price for the SR was more like 9k or less OTD. even with the current range and charge time it would work for me and most people. average american commute 20 each way. so 40 miles + errands is more then enough and should leave me with enough juice .

lets hope in the next year they can start cutting the price.

The base price of $17k is what stopping me at this time and having 3 bikes already too. I would have to sell at least one of my bikes, mostly the CB360 as it not ridden that much anymore and it requires a little bit of work to get it back into shape. Possibly my ST1300 too. That leave me with NaNCy and the Zero then.

The dealer told me that manufacture kept the price down and only raised it only $350 with all the improvements including the ABS for the 2015 SR model to help to sell more units. In 2016, pricing will be going up $2,000 or more. It was explained to me that Zero MC Corporate based the pricing all the “Flagship” models from all the manufactures. For Honda it would be the 2015 CBR1000RR REPSOL CHAMPION SPECIAL, which list for $17,299.

I know what you all are saying, a ZERO is not a SuperSport Bike and you are right. Also, "Why are they using bikes such as those to come up with that pricing?", I truthly do not know why. The consumer does not set the list pricing (MSRP), it's only for us to decide upon. We just have the right to either buy it or leave it. If the base price was $12k, then I would pursue it and there would be a Zero SR setting in my garage right now.

 

[mreric]

The dealer told me that manufacture kept the price down and only raised it only $350 with all the improvements including the ABS for the 2015 SR model to help to sell more units. In 2016, pricing will be going up $2,000 or more. It was explained to me that Zero MC Corporate based the pricing all the “Flagship” models from all the manufactures. For Honda it would be the 2015 CBR1000RR REPSOL CHAMPION SPECIAL, which list for $17,299.

ii

i think they were trying to get you to buy, i dont think that would be true. i think the price will go down. one thing that might stir the market is tesla factory, once that facility is full capacity and running full speed, battery prices are sure to come down. give this tech 3 more years i say.

we are almost there.

 

[L.B.S.]

I'm not against electric motorcycles (or any vehicle for that matter) but it would be a pretty hard sell to crunch the numbers in any justified way, to convince me an electric motorbike could hope to compete with my CBR125R for cost/mile over say, 10 years, in a strictly inner city commuter role. (But then again, I have done many thousands of highway miles too, no problems, and the distances involved would leave an electric bike long dead and out of juice)

Price: (2007) $2,999.00 CDN dollars
mpg: (US gal) 90-100 +/-
fuel tank/octane: 10 litres 87
tank range: 250 miles +/-
70+ mph top speed (around 73-ish with no wind or hills, lol)
Weight (mine) 250 lbs wet
Oil: 1 litre
No oil filter to change
two valves, screw and locknut: beyond easy for owner to service.
liquid cooled, but no need to touch coolant to do service.
EFI
1 platinum spark plug

Tires are wee little things (90/90-17 front, 100/90-17 rear) that are very cheap and last a long time

Chain driven, a #428 size. A kit with both front and rear sprockets and a chain, costs about $44.00 US dollars


The electric bikes would kick it's a$$ in acceleration, possibly do better for top speed, but not for very long.

 

[pprior]

That's just silly. Might as well compare a moped. Not even the same world of performance


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[L.B.S.]

That's just silly. Might as well compare a moped. Not even the same world of performance


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And what "performance" exactly are we comparing? List it out. Should be super easy since it's so silly. Straight line acceleration only? Who knew motorcycles were so one dimensional!

 

[mreric]

I'm not against electric motorcycles (or any vehicle for that matter) but it would be a pretty hard sell to crunch the numbers in any justified way, to convince me an electric motorbike could hope to compete with my CBR125R for cost/mile over say, 10 years, in a strictly inner city commuter role. (But then again, I have done many thousands of highway miles too, no problems, and the distances involved would leave an electric bike long dead and out of juice)

Price: (2007) $2,999.00 CDN dollars
mpg: (US gal) 90-100 +/-
fuel tank/octane: 10 litres 87
tank range: 250 miles +/-
70+ mph top speed (around 73-ish with no wind or hills, lol)
Weight (mine) 250 lbs wet
Oil: 1 litre
No oil filter to change
two valves, screw and locknut: beyond easy for owner to service.
liquid cooled, but no need to touch coolant to do service.
EFI
1 platinum spark plug

Tires are wee little things (90/90-17 front, 100/90-17 rear) that are very cheap and last a long time

Chain driven, a #428 size. A kit with both front and rear sprockets and a chain, costs about $44.00 US dollars


The electric bikes would kick it's a$$ in acceleration, possibly do better for top speed, but not for very long.

not sure if this is a good comparison.

ride one. you will be surprise. sure range still not as great as gas.

but all the things u mention about maint would be gone,

belt driven, meaning no adjustment needed every 500-1000 miles, no lube. no spark plug to worry or foul, no oil change, no oil to even check, it wont suddenly eat oil, or antifreeze, no radiator to break or replace. no valve check or adjustment, no gasket to replace, as there is not liquid to contain

there is no cat converter, no exhaust to break or scratch or replace,

theres is so much less moving parts inside a electric motor compare to a combustion engine. so less complication in diag and repairs. electric motors can lass a long time with no maint ,

you will have quiet neighborhood again

pretending that someday the prices are reasonable. electric vehicle only have two disadvantages over gas ( for now ): range and charge time. this will get solve at some point, we are almost there, testa can already get 300+ miles per charge. just like my mazda, but can't be fueled in 5 min.