I voted just for the fun of it (manual, because I have one). It doesn't matter at all what we like; the question is what do you like?
Greg
Greg
DCT or Manual
- Thread starter mrmin24
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Alabama Al
Member
I have the DCT, I LOVE it!!
Bubba Satori
Member
Ya know, even if I wasn't so gimpy on my left side from my shoulder all the way down to my ankle,
I would still probably prefer the DCT at this point in my life. I just want to ride the bike with the
least amount of fuss and enjoy the ride. I'm an old fart, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I would still probably prefer the DCT at this point in my life. I just want to ride the bike with the
least amount of fuss and enjoy the ride. I'm an old fart, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I was at work when I voted, thinking which one I prefer. If I could change my vote, I would change it to the DCT because that's the bike you really want.
Hell I waited years for the NCX! A few months is easy. Buy what you really want! I will say this though. The manual is a fun bike.
Hell I waited years for the NCX! A few months is easy. Buy what you really want! I will say this though. The manual is a fun bike.
D
danrev
I bought the manual because I only do recreational riding and since my cars are automatics I missed shifting. I also live in a mostly rural area so once I'm out of town I don't have to shift that much. However, if I lived in a city and used the bike to commute I probably would go with the DCT. Whenever I drive through cities and get stuck in stop and go traffic I like having an automatic.
Phil X
New Member
There are many reasons for and against DCT. I finally voted for DCT for two generic reasons that IMHO are not related to personal views.
- Riding the NC-DCT is really a cool thing. Something that will come to ones mind after lengthy usage.
- Manual shifting is somewhat outdated. A cumbersome task introduced through restrictions of combustion engines (as like engine noise, many have become used to it and therefore feel a need for it). Riding without a need for clutch and shifting will shift capacity to real riding tasks. I had the chance to realize about this strong effect when doing offroad riding with an electric KTM, which was an absolutely awesome and capable ride. In some way the DCT is similar. For me it seems to make up a fairly fast and capable ride, maybe faster than I am aware of, so I need to advise myself to return into some decent riding style over and over again. Yes. It is fun.
- Riding the NC-DCT is really a cool thing. Something that will come to ones mind after lengthy usage.
- Manual shifting is somewhat outdated. A cumbersome task introduced through restrictions of combustion engines (as like engine noise, many have become used to it and therefore feel a need for it). Riding without a need for clutch and shifting will shift capacity to real riding tasks. I had the chance to realize about this strong effect when doing offroad riding with an electric KTM, which was an absolutely awesome and capable ride. In some way the DCT is similar. For me it seems to make up a fairly fast and capable ride, maybe faster than I am aware of, so I need to advise myself to return into some decent riding style over and over again. Yes. It is fun.
DominusFL
Elite Member
Remember that the DCT is not an automatic transmission. It is a manual transmission with a computer controlled dual clutch system. It is shifting 6 conventional gears for you. The opposite extreme would be my Volt, it has 1 gear that takes you from 0 to 100 without any gear changes. Engine just spins faster.
Fuzzy
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It is different technology than other automatic transmissions, but is still an automatic transmission as it works automatically without operator controlling it. It has gears which most if not all other automatic transmissions don't have, but it is still automatic.
au·to·mat·ic
/ˌôtəˈmatik/
Adjective
(of a device or process) Working by itself with little or no direct human control: "an automatic kettle that switches itself off".
DominusFL
Elite Member
Your right. I simply meant that it didn't use a torque converter like the old automatic cars he was referring to. ;-)
OriginalRocket
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Yeah I tell ignorant folk it has the same transmission type as the Ferraris use!
Pabaldeagle
Site Supporter
I bought the DCT after learning such a technology existed. I found it looking at the Aprilia Mana. Their website video sold me on the concept of "concentrating on the ride". I knew it was likely marketing hype, but I do find I can hit a turn with a flick of my thumb (or two flicks if I'm going in too hot) and not get that sharp stab of deceleration when the clutch pops. The bundling of the ABS with DCT also helped make the decision. I've only gone down once (knock on wood) and it was rain slicked road where I locked the back tire and it slipped out from under me. I'm taking good care of the NC since the Aprilia was $3k more!
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Bodysnatcher
New Member
Much as I like manual gearboxes I went DCT because I was commuting through 28 miles (both directions) of L.A. rush hour freeway traffic. Being able to split lanes with at least 1 hand always firmly gripping the bars, without thinking of shifting, and having ABS to help with inevitable panic stops seemed like a no brainer even with the extra weight and lesser fuel efficiency! When riding for fun the S mode works well and there is always the freedom to force a shift if you feel the need. I find the full manual mode to be superfluous though and have it wedged to prevent accidental activation - easily undone if necessary!
yticolev
Member
Anyone know why the DCT is expected to get lower mpg? I get it with a hydraulic transmission, but where would the losses from the DCT be coming from?
Who said the DCT was expected to get lower mpg? The same people that said the brakes were weak?
Like you, I see no reason for the MPG difference, aside from the slight additional weight of the DCT bike. The gear ratios are nearly identical, and there are no different losses in the clutches.
Greg
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yticolev
Member
I think Honda says so, 3 mpg lower to be precise. I just can't figure out why. The weight difference should be negligible on fuel efficiency, and even the shift algorithms are likely to be more conducive to good mpg than manual selection.
What are the differences in gear ratios? First I've heard that. If the final drive ratio is different, that could account for it.
What are the differences in gear ratios? First I've heard that. If the final drive ratio is different, that could account for it.
The overall gear ratios for both DCT and manual are in the owner's manual (Ha! Got ya on the owner's manual thing!
). Sixth gear overall ratio of 0.837 is the same on both DCT and manual versions. Other gears are close, with first on the DCT being 2.666 while the manual is 2.812.I don't think the ratios could account for an MPG difference.
BTW, a similar thread exists on this same topic: http://nc700-forum.com/forum/nc700-general-discussion/744-fuel-efficiency-manual-dct.html
Greg
yticolev
Member
Wow, your first post in that thread states 78 mpg over 1,700 miles. Impressive. Edit, your current fuelly says 77.6. I'd like to hear more about how you achieve that.
So looking at my manual (ha), you are right, 6th gear ratio is the same. However, the final drive reduction is different: 2.687/2.437 manual/DCT. I think those are the numbers that are key to the question. The manual also states that the DCT has a 39t rear sprocket (versus a 43t for the manual) which is perhaps where the number comes from.
Let's see,
2.687/2.437 = 10.25%
43/39 = 10.26%
So that is the answer, the manual's higher mpg is directly related to the higher top gear ratio. That could be confirmed with a side by side test of the two models at the same speed: the DCT should be turning 10 percent more rpms.
I think that is a mystery solved. Presumably you could retrofit the DCT with a 43t and mpg would be close to the same. My experience is that top gear is painful in the manual and I'll bet that user experience in top gear on the DCT is much better. Probably a human engineering exercise - perhaps the DCT's ability to auto downshift in top gear is less than excellent.
So looking at my manual (ha), you are right, 6th gear ratio is the same. However, the final drive reduction is different: 2.687/2.437 manual/DCT. I think those are the numbers that are key to the question. The manual also states that the DCT has a 39t rear sprocket (versus a 43t for the manual) which is perhaps where the number comes from.
Let's see,
2.687/2.437 = 10.25%
43/39 = 10.26%
So that is the answer, the manual's higher mpg is directly related to the higher top gear ratio. That could be confirmed with a side by side test of the two models at the same speed: the DCT should be turning 10 percent more rpms.
I think that is a mystery solved. Presumably you could retrofit the DCT with a 43t and mpg would be close to the same. My experience is that top gear is painful in the manual and I'll bet that user experience in top gear on the DCT is much better. Probably a human engineering exercise - perhaps the DCT's ability to auto downshift in top gear is less than excellent.
Great investigative work there. But!! There's more to the story. While the final drives are different
(sprocket sizes), the primary drives are also different (crankshaft to clutch). Manual primary drive reduction is 1.731 and the final is 2.687, while the DCT primary drive reduction is 1.921 and the final is 2.437.
So,
Manual 1.731*2.687=4.65
DCT 1.921*2.437=4.68
There's only about 0.65% difference in the overall gearing from the crankshaft to the rear wheel on the DCT vs the manual in sixth gear. Both bikes are turning nearly identical engine RPM at a given road speed in sixth gear.
The mystery remains. Could it be that the fuel mapping is different to improve ridability with the auto transmission, at the cost of a couple MPG?
Greg
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yticolev
Member
I'm not sure I get that, it seems to me that the only difference in top gear would be the teeth difference, or the final drive number. Where does the primary drive reduction occur? I admit I don't really understand motor vehicle transmissions or how they are specified.
I can think of one other thing no one appears to have mentioned. There is an extra wet clutch that is always open. That could be a significant hydraulic drag. I wouldn't have thought that would add up to a 5% loss in mileage (more like one percent or so), but maybe?
I can think of one other thing no one appears to have mentioned. There is an extra wet clutch that is always open. That could be a significant hydraulic drag. I wouldn't have thought that would add up to a 5% loss in mileage (more like one percent or so), but maybe?
Primary reduction takes place between the primary drive gear on the crankshaft (lower right corner in the photo) and the clutch housing gear (primary driven gear) that it meshes with, seen partially cut away in the photo. The owners manual says these gears are different from manual vs DCT. But that difference is corrected in the final drive ratio determined by the chain sprockets.
Greg
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