DCT Issue

[670cc]

Someone might find this being too harsh or siding with the dealer, but I see it as simple reality.

It seems to me the competence level of the dealer was fairly obvious after the first one or two visits. telecam had reasons to chose to continue to ask that the bike be repaired by them. The dealer did their best effort, however effective or ineffective it might have been, and eventually found and implemented the resolution. Personally, I think the dealer is justified in charging the full amount, with the exception of the unauthorized clutch disassembly, which has been conceded. It’s not like they are committing any fraud or causing damage to the motorcycle, they just don’t really know what they’re doing. But again, that was apparent in the beginning.

The dealer service department doesn’t work for free. I wouldn’t.

If having to pay someone for their time to repair your machine is not something you’re comfortable doing, then the options are to find a different shop/mechanic, or to do it yourself.

 

[HarveyM]

If the repairs were authorized I don't see the legal recourse. Basically it's up to telecam & the dealer to come to some agreement. I would (try to) squeeze the dealer for some of the costs. He makes the decisions on who services the bikes, and what training (chuckle) they have. He should bear some of the costs of when his mechanics mess up.

 

[GregC]

I think definitely negotiate a final bill. The dealer is charging his “normal” hourly rate, and I would argue their level of expertise on this case was not consistent with that rate. So maybe calculate labor based on a discounted rate reflective of the fact that they really did not seem to know how to troubleshoot a DCT. This fact they should have disclosed right up front, IMO.


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[telecam]

If the repairs were authorized I don't see the legal recourse. Basically it's up to telecam & the dealer to come to some agreement. I would (try to) squeeze the dealer for some of the costs. He makes the decisions on who services the bikes, and what training (chuckle) they have. He should bear some of the costs of when his mechanics mess up.

Yes but on their work orders it is clearly stated that, repairs are guaranteed 30 Days or 1,000 miles. The first three lasted, less than 10 miles or 15 minutes. I think that gives me a pretty good case.

 

[b_rubenstein]

Someone might find this being too harsh or siding with the dealer, but I see it as simple reality.

No, it's blaming the victim. Technical expertise is not a requirement for purchasing a motor vehicle. It is a perfectly reasonable expectation of an authorized dealer's service department. Based on the note received from the service manager by telecam, he's only semi-literate and couldn't comprehend the DTC diagnostic material in the service manual. After taking almost 3 months to repair the bike, the dealer owes telecam a rental fee for the use of his instructional tool.

 

[ld_rider]

From ConsumerFindLaw.com (whatever that is worth):

Unauthorized Repairs
Sometimes, especially if you have a much older car and not much money, you might just get work done on your car that is considered crucial and let some other problems go by the wayside. But if the mechanic has made any unauthorized repairs and demands payment, provided it was completely unrelated to the original problem, you may be able to sue the mechanic.

Making unnecessary repairs or failing to put in the proper part(s) would also fall under the category of unauthorized repairs. But, if the shop made a good faith effort to solve a problem and fixed something else along the way, perhaps as a possible solution to the original problem, paying for the car repair work may be the best move.

If, for whatever reason, you decide you do not want to pay for the services provided by a car repair shop, the shop may be legally entitled to keep your car.

I have no idea if any of this ^^^ applies to either motorcycles or the laws in the OPs state. My educated guess is that all repairs were authorized, and were completed in "good faith". If that is so, then it appears to me that the best recourse was already stated: Try and work with the dealer. That is what I did.

My F150 had a terrible vibration. After a new drive shaft, new rear end, etc, etc, I was $2,600 dollars in the hole. Still had a vibration. Turns out the front rotor on my model F150 (which the dealer had replaced a month before) also contains the front wheel bearings. One was bad and failed prematurely. That is what was causing the vibration. Found it when they finally put microphones under the truck and drove it, hoping to find the source. They took responsibility for all the $$ and time they had spent while chasing this problem and simply ripped up the bill.

My total cost? Zero dollars.

I will be ordering my new truck from the same dealer. Something for the OP's dealer to think about.

 

[670cc]

No, it's blaming the victim. Technical expertise is not a requirement for purchasing a motor vehicle. It is a perfectly reasonable expectation of an authorized dealer's service department. Based on the note received from the service manager by telecam, he's only semi-literate and couldn't comprehend the DTC diagnostic material in the service manual. After taking almost 3 months to repair the bike, the dealer owes telecam a rental fee for the use of his instructional tool.

Based on personal experiences, it’s been a long, long time since I’ve had any reasonable expectations that a dealer’s service department can make a good quality repair. While I agree that technical expertise is not a requirement for purchasing a vehicle, it’s going to make your life a whole lot easier if you have it.

I also agree that the language used by the service manager in his/her repair summary clearly indicates a lack of technical knowledge. It would make arguing about the specific repairs made and the justifications for them rather futile, since you’d be talking to a person that doesn’t clearly understand the machine.

But, on page one on this thread, it was already apparent that the dealer service was incompetent, and there were recommendations to go elsewhere. There is no “victim” here. The dealer’s competence level was already apparent, and the business transaction continued willingly.

 

[670cc]

Yes but on their work orders it is clearly stated that, repairs are guaranteed 30 Days or 1,000 miles. The first three lasted, less than 10 miles or 15 minutes. I think that gives me a pretty good case.

First off, I personally don’t think the battery, the PCM, or the clutch were faulty or had anything to do with the shifting problem. But you might want to prepare yourself for the 30 day warranty claim effort.

You say to the dealer that the battery didn’t fix the shifting problem. Dealers says the HDS indicated the battery was bad, so it was replaced. Has the new battery failed in 30 days? No. No warranty claim.

You say to the dealer that the PCM change was not necessary and did not fix the shifting problem. Dealer says service manual procedures and Honda tech line said PCM was bad, so it had to be replaced. Did the new PCM fail in 30 days? No. No warranty claim.

Dealer is saying they had to fix those “problems” before they could get to the shifter motor.

Again, I don’t think the battery, clutch, or PCM were faulty, but the dealer is already stating justification for the replacement of the battery and PCM, and the battery and PCM have not failed in 30 days. Just saying this so you can try to think the way they do.

 

[ld_rider]

I don’t think the battery, clutch, or PCM were faulty.

I guess putting the original battery, clutch and PCM back into the bike (one component at a time) would narrow the root cause?

OP, do you have any of the old parts? Might be an interesting Winter project if you really wanted to know what was going on. You have to REALLY want to know, I imagine the process would be pretty involved.

 

[b_rubenstein]

If the dealer made repairs because they had to without authorization from telecam, they can go pound sand trying to get him to pay for them.

Having a discussion to resolve this with an incompetent, weasel dealership is just pissing into the wind. Finding an attorney that deals with consumer protection has the best prospect for an equitable resolution. Typically, the American Bar Association for your state/area will have a listing of attorneys and the type of law they practice. If nothing else, having a consultation with a lawyer will provide information on applicable statute law and how it applies to this particular situation. Getting legal advice from an internet forum, beyond talk to a lawyer, isn't a great idea.

 

[telecam]

I guess putting the original battery, clutch and PCM back into the bike (one component at a time) would narrow the root cause?

OP, do you have any of the old parts? Might be an interesting Winter project if you really wanted to know what was going on. You have to REALLY want to know, I imagine the process would be pretty involved.

My lithium batt is back on the mortorcyle. Not ready to take the clutch appart though...

 

[dduelin]

We know these bikes are so dependent on clean 12V power and were tested, designed, and delivered with ECUs & charging systems designed for AGM lead acid batteries.... why use a non-recommended battery in it? What is the advantage? Li likes a higher charge current than lead acid and charges slightly differently. Conceivably you could run into another electrical DTC and the dealer's diagnostic computer would indicate the battery is bad..........like it did at first, no?

 

[GregC]

I don’t think getting an attorney is going to help (anyone other than the attorney, that is). There’s no “recovery” here to provide a basis for a contingent fee, so the lawyer is going to be an hourly fee engagement. This will end up as a collection and breach of contract claim, and that’s going to take a lot of time with no clear winner - so you go to trial (cha-Ching). And this will take a lot of your time and attention.

It seems like OP would be unlikely to use this dealer again. I’d just go negotiate a number you can live with and call it a day. Life’s too short.


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[Deleted member 1183]

My lithium batt is back on the mortorcyle. Not ready to take the clutch appart though...

Given that You are back on the road and all is well with Your bike, is it possible that You can banish those awful (BMW) thoughts from Your mind ?

 

[telecam]

Given that You are back on the road and all is well with Your bike, is it possible that You can banish those awful (BMW) thoughts from Your mind ?

Ha, ha! Yes but that bike felt really good though...

 

[telecam]

We know these bikes are so dependent on clean 12V power and were tested, designed, and delivered with ECUs & charging systems designed for AGM lead acid batteries.... why use a non-recommended battery in it? What is the advantage? Li likes a higher charge current than lead acid and charges slightly differently. Conceivably you could run into another electrical DTC and the dealer's diagnostic computer would indicate the battery is bad..........like it did at first, no?

It’s the other way around, batteries are designed to deliver clean and consistent power and automotive lithiums are no exception. I think it’s time to admit the fact that the only thing that was bad on my 6,300 miles NC was the shifting motor, not the oil, not the filters, not the clutch pack and certainly not the ECU. For got sake, it’s a Honda!

 

[b_rubenstein]

Batteries aren't designed to deliver clean power. It's inherent in producing electrical energy by a chemical reaction. Attach an oscilloscope, or spectrum analyzer to the terminals of a battery (without the engine running) and there will be no noise riding on the DC. Now, motorcycles, cars, trucks, airplanes all have electrically noisy environments, so electronic systems are designed to work properly in those environments. Without knowing what in the DTC system is sensitive to voltage, current or noise, it's not really possible to attribute a malfunction to battery chemistry. A mismatch between the battery charging circuit and battery chemistry would only effect the life of the battery. (And yes, electricity, like lawyers use evil magic.)

 

[lootzyan]

What does it mean "clean power"? It doesn't exists in physics or science of electricity, at least in my knowledge.

I only hear about "clean or not-clean source of energy", when used by environmentalists or politicians.

Electric power is just mathematical representation of electrical energy over time, to simplify things, that's all.

 

[ste7ios]

We know these bikes are so dependent on clean 12V power and were tested, designed, and delivered with ECUs & charging systems designed for AGM lead acid batteries.... why use a non-recommended battery in it? What is the advantage? Li likes a higher charge current than lead acid and charges slightly differently. Conceivably you could run into another electrical DTC and the dealer's diagnostic computer would indicate the battery is bad..........like it did at first, no?

An automotive / SLI battery main purpose it to feed the starter, act as a buffer when the generator can’t produce the required power (when idling), and as a filter (like a capacitor) to smooth generator’s output.

Once the engine is running the generator feeds all the electronics and charges the battery with a volatile voltage (in a range of about “what the battery voltage is” to 15.7V).

There’s no such thing like “clean 12V power” like a straight line on an oscilloscope... There are ripples smoothed a little by the battery. It looks like image 1 (fast idling) & 3 (slow idling) bellow. (Images 4 & 5 are problematic cases with a diode burned and an open stator winding...)



LiFePO4 batteries are 100% compatible with AGM VRLA lead acid batteries (same voltage range) and although they’ve different properties (weight, extreme power, big charge rate / small charging times, low temp problems) they’re good replacements to AGMs especially when sized correctly (to support accessories and have better lifetime).

It’s also Honda’s choice for the latest Africa Twin... http://eliiypower.co.jp/english/vc-files/pdf/pdf_eng/20180308_Release.pdf

Whatever you choose (LiFePO4 or AGM), the battery must be in good condition and the connections tight. When a battery is weak it’s good to be replaced in time not only to avoid starting issues...

 

[670cc]

It’s also Honda’s choice for the latest Africa Twin... https://eliiypower.co.jp/english/vc-files/pdf/pdf_eng/20180308_Release.pdf

I thought this might also be a good battery option for the NC, until I looked up Honda's price:

31500-MKK-A02

BATTERY (HY110) (ELIIY POWER) (MSDS)

$587.30