HarveyM
Active Member
I think the main point is the BMW dealers in the area actually have decent reputations, unlike his Honda dealership- at least according too my quick internet search.
DCT Issue
- Thread starter telecam
- Start date
Doc True
Site Supporter
I don't know, owning a BMW turned me into a decent motorcycle mechanic.
telecam
Site Supporter
Update #16 (Day 84): So... IT'S FIXED. I rode the NC over 30 miles in fairly warm weather and intense city driving conditions and gear shifting was as smooth as it should be. It seems ridiculous that after 80 days at the shop, the culprit ended up being a very easy fix, the $220 shifting motor.
So, I want to first thank all on this great forum who have jumped to the rescue with advice, tips, suggestions and moral support. It has been quite a roller coaster since my bike was first towed to the dealer on July 11. I am also thanking the dealer (Coleman PowerSports) which at first was slow to respond and provided sub-par repairs and testing. That coincided with them being at the height of the season and short handed. At a time were they seamed ready to drop the ball and not want my bike back in the shop, things kicked into gear and in the past month, I have seen huge improvements in returning calls and emails and keeping me updated on the repair progress. To their credit, Honda tech services provided guidance in the last repair and mis-diagnosed a faulty PCM (ECU).... As for Honda PowerSports Customer Care, overall a very disappointing experience. Their reps are obviously trained to tame the customer and talk nice but they pretty much limit the scope of their actions to facilitate communications between dealer and customer. I know their products are good (I bought 3 Honda motorcycles and 2 cars so far...) but as with many companies who manufacture good products, they get cocky and don't give a shit about isolated incidents because they know they will get buried in the overwhelming positive image the company enjoys. Things turned a bit sour after I informed them I had started a twitter feed to share my DCT woes. They took notice right away and my customer care rep called inquiring about my intentions to share this on social media... In my opinion, any company should step in a big way when a customer with a fairly recent vehicle (less than 10,000 miles) has been waiting over 30 days for a repair.
As for Honda's DCT, here are some thoughts.
- After riding in town over an hour today, it keeps reminding me how great and unique the system is. That is the very one thing that would make me hesitate to fall back to a classic gear shifting motorcycle. For the record, I have owned Hondas XL125, CB500, BMW GS650, F800ST...
- As far as I can tell, DCT is reliable and existing owners or wannabees should not worry. There are plenty of reports of riders with 30, 40, 50K and so miles with no issues at all. But if you search carefully, you will also find incidents here in there, most minor and easily taken care by resetting the DCT. More serious issues are related to a bad battery, loss of power, faulty connections, defective shifter pin or sensors.
- DCT works well and can save your clutch pack from premature wear but with its 6 sensors, shifting motor, dual clutches and PCM, it definitely adds complication when comparing to a traditional bike. Despite the pretty thorough checklists in the service manual and the error codes the computer is supposed to record, there are obviously some gaps to fill when troubleshooting problems. In my case, there was no clear fault code that indicated a faulty shifting motor...
- I am happy to keep ridding a DCT bike in the city but in regard to my latest experience, I'd be a bit leery to do a long, adventure journey on one. The one thing that really bugs me is that a loss of power (bad battery) will render the bike unusable. I believe that most conventional motorcycle today can still be pushed start?
Coincidentally, as I was leaving the shop, a mechanic told me a NC700X with 2,000 miles was brought in the day before with a similar DCT problem. I wished him good luck.
Thanks all!
So, I want to first thank all on this great forum who have jumped to the rescue with advice, tips, suggestions and moral support. It has been quite a roller coaster since my bike was first towed to the dealer on July 11. I am also thanking the dealer (Coleman PowerSports) which at first was slow to respond and provided sub-par repairs and testing. That coincided with them being at the height of the season and short handed. At a time were they seamed ready to drop the ball and not want my bike back in the shop, things kicked into gear and in the past month, I have seen huge improvements in returning calls and emails and keeping me updated on the repair progress. To their credit, Honda tech services provided guidance in the last repair and mis-diagnosed a faulty PCM (ECU).... As for Honda PowerSports Customer Care, overall a very disappointing experience. Their reps are obviously trained to tame the customer and talk nice but they pretty much limit the scope of their actions to facilitate communications between dealer and customer. I know their products are good (I bought 3 Honda motorcycles and 2 cars so far...) but as with many companies who manufacture good products, they get cocky and don't give a shit about isolated incidents because they know they will get buried in the overwhelming positive image the company enjoys. Things turned a bit sour after I informed them I had started a twitter feed to share my DCT woes. They took notice right away and my customer care rep called inquiring about my intentions to share this on social media... In my opinion, any company should step in a big way when a customer with a fairly recent vehicle (less than 10,000 miles) has been waiting over 30 days for a repair.
As for Honda's DCT, here are some thoughts.
- After riding in town over an hour today, it keeps reminding me how great and unique the system is. That is the very one thing that would make me hesitate to fall back to a classic gear shifting motorcycle. For the record, I have owned Hondas XL125, CB500, BMW GS650, F800ST...
- As far as I can tell, DCT is reliable and existing owners or wannabees should not worry. There are plenty of reports of riders with 30, 40, 50K and so miles with no issues at all. But if you search carefully, you will also find incidents here in there, most minor and easily taken care by resetting the DCT. More serious issues are related to a bad battery, loss of power, faulty connections, defective shifter pin or sensors.
- DCT works well and can save your clutch pack from premature wear but with its 6 sensors, shifting motor, dual clutches and PCM, it definitely adds complication when comparing to a traditional bike. Despite the pretty thorough checklists in the service manual and the error codes the computer is supposed to record, there are obviously some gaps to fill when troubleshooting problems. In my case, there was no clear fault code that indicated a faulty shifting motor...
- I am happy to keep ridding a DCT bike in the city but in regard to my latest experience, I'd be a bit leery to do a long, adventure journey on one. The one thing that really bugs me is that a loss of power (bad battery) will render the bike unusable. I believe that most conventional motorcycle today can still be pushed start?
Coincidentally, as I was leaving the shop, a mechanic told me a NC700X with 2,000 miles was brought in the day before with a similar DCT problem. I wished him good luck.
Thanks all!
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Great follow-up Telecam and you’ve answered a number of questions that helps put the whole experience in perspective. Thanks for seeing it all through to the end. Now you have some catching up to do - on the road!!
telecam
Site Supporter
Gotta be all proud, 230 replies and 5,300 something views!
I’m glad this issue is resolved, assuming it is, and I’m especially pleased that telecam took the time to inform and educate us all on his DCT’s fault and dealer experience. I worked as a field engineer all my working life, often solving complex problems on electronic/mechanical/computerized equipment. Whenever it seemed like we would never find the solution to the problem, I always reminded myself that when the solution is finally found, it will always make perfect sense in hindsight.
Now for my negative comments. I’ve turned my filter off now, so stop reading here if you don’t want to hear my rants.
There is a very serious shortcoming in the Honda DCT diagnostic trouble code capabilities. This fault that telecam’s bike had should have easily put up a useful fault code and taken us right to the problem. The shift motor would be commanded to step the shift drum. Feedback from the shift spindle angle sensor, or whatever sensor knows where the shift drum is at, should confirm whether the drum moved to the desired position. If not positioned as expected, then trouble code is posted; the fix is quick and easy. Get a motor or a sensor. Incompetent dealer aside, to have to go through all this guesswork to find the problem is a joke.
Another thing that troubles me is this frequent use of the clutch calibration process. Now it was hinted in the beginning that the DCT could actually learn and adapt to the rider’s riding habits. I even had that suggestion made to me a month ago by one of the women running the official Honda GL1800 DCT demo rides operation. This self learning thing is a bunch of malarkey, of course, but what bugs me more is that this transmission doesn’t even seem capable of self adjusting for changing conditions and ongoing wear. Seriously? Do owners really need to do this clutch calibration on a routine basis? Why isn’t it an automated routine done by the PCM?
A failure in a manual motorcycle transmission would be very rare, but it could likely be serviced quickly by any competent mechanic anywhere in the world regardless of any brand specific training. Going off in the boonies with a Honda DCT and having a show-stopper failure of this type is just not for me. I like to be in total control of situations and be able to solve problems quickly on the fly. While there are thousands and thousands of Honda DCTs operating flawlessly, this episode and other failures mentioned like it, has convinced me that the added complexity of the DCT is not worth the nominal convenience and entertainment value of having one. I’ll take the one with the manual transmission, thank you.
Now for my negative comments. I’ve turned my filter off now, so stop reading here if you don’t want to hear my rants.
There is a very serious shortcoming in the Honda DCT diagnostic trouble code capabilities. This fault that telecam’s bike had should have easily put up a useful fault code and taken us right to the problem. The shift motor would be commanded to step the shift drum. Feedback from the shift spindle angle sensor, or whatever sensor knows where the shift drum is at, should confirm whether the drum moved to the desired position. If not positioned as expected, then trouble code is posted; the fix is quick and easy. Get a motor or a sensor. Incompetent dealer aside, to have to go through all this guesswork to find the problem is a joke.
Another thing that troubles me is this frequent use of the clutch calibration process. Now it was hinted in the beginning that the DCT could actually learn and adapt to the rider’s riding habits. I even had that suggestion made to me a month ago by one of the women running the official Honda GL1800 DCT demo rides operation. This self learning thing is a bunch of malarkey, of course, but what bugs me more is that this transmission doesn’t even seem capable of self adjusting for changing conditions and ongoing wear. Seriously? Do owners really need to do this clutch calibration on a routine basis? Why isn’t it an automated routine done by the PCM?
A failure in a manual motorcycle transmission would be very rare, but it could likely be serviced quickly by any competent mechanic anywhere in the world regardless of any brand specific training. Going off in the boonies with a Honda DCT and having a show-stopper failure of this type is just not for me. I like to be in total control of situations and be able to solve problems quickly on the fly. While there are thousands and thousands of Honda DCTs operating flawlessly, this episode and other failures mentioned like it, has convinced me that the added complexity of the DCT is not worth the nominal convenience and entertainment value of having one. I’ll take the one with the manual transmission, thank you.
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So happy to hear that this is over. Welcome back to riding 
rmezei
Member
Curious if they gave you back the bad shifter motor or if it will end up with Honda for review ... would be useful to know why the heck it failed so prematurely.
rmezei
Member
Also check out similar issue in this thread ... error code 57 was shown for bad shift motor ...
Honda NC700X with shifting's problem.
Honda NC700X with shifting's problem.
b_rubenstein
New Member
There are any number of reasons why some assembly failed, and companies generally aren't all that interested until some statistically significant number of failures occur. There have probably been a hand full of NC shifter motors in North America. If there were a significant number of failures, a root cause analysis would be done wherever design cognizance for the motor resides, which is not in NA.
telecam
Site Supporter
Good find. DCT starting to act up only after 20 minutes, same as mine. But I wonder where the 57 code popped up? He doesn't say how that code was traced.
D
Deleted member 1183
I agree with some of the above but not all. I have seen issues with other makes that have taken many man hours to find. These have been bikes with modern complex electronics and supposedly with diagnostic codes that will theoretically bring a tech straight to the cause. Not so. I saw my Tech tearing his hair out with one such problem. The Bike was intermittently running poorly and no diagnostic code. Long story short, the cause was water in one of the main connectors in the loom only found when he methodically started pulling all of them apart.
The main error here is with Honda care bears. They should have sufficient staff suitably trained and aware of the various issues to be able to diagnose any such issues in a phone call. If such folks were in existence or even contactable then we could all go into the boonies knowing that a fix for our bike would only be a phone call and a courier away. Don't forget that a broken gearbox part on a non DCT box will put a dead stop to a trip into the boonies just as quickly as a DCT issue. Only difference is that it is easier to diagnose.
I too am grateful to Telecam for meticulously reporting on all of this and educating us. If I ever have a DCT issue, thanks to this forum (and others) I now know the various aspects to look for. Thanks to Telecam we now have another.
I think DCT is brilliant. Not just a novelty, but a new aspect to motorcycling that can be just as engaging as a standard gearbox and in the most part reliable. Only a couple of hours ago I was clipping around my local backroads and still marveling at how well it works. This even after 12 months of ownership and 17,000 trouble free Kms. Long may that last.
lootzyan
Well-Known Member
Every time you do "magic with calibration", all useful diagnostic data stored in PCM's memory is erased.
telecam
Site Supporter
Hi guys,
My dealer's service manager said the last repair bill (the shifting motor) was on the house but seems to imply that all other work was necessary. I disagree and already asked my credit cards to refund the charges from repair #1, #2 and #3 because they did nothing to fix the issue. Below is a message I received from the service manager. He blames my bike for having many problems and frankly, that is a bit insulting for someone who cherishes his bike like a pet.... What would you respond or should I not bother at this point? It is unclear to me whether they are expecting me pay for all 3 first repairs which totaled about $1,500 with theirs discounts. And reading his account on the other bike they took in the shop with DCT issues at 2,000 miles, sounds DCT bikes have bad karma in my neck of the woods...
Best,
T.
"The previous repairs all needed to be done to get the bike repaired. The bike had multiple issues that caused the problem. The low battery we had to del with because that's what the bike said was an issue when the unit first came in and hooked to the Honda Diagnostic System (HDS). Then after that and doing all the test from the service manual and from Honda tech line the results was replace the PCM with a know good one. while waiting for the PCM the technician pulled your clutches out to inspect even though Honda tech line told him it was no need to do so. He did find that one of your clutch packs did not spend freely in its case as designed. So he thought he could disassemble the unit to inspect and put back together but that is not recommended so we got you a new clutch pack, no charge to you. The clutch pack was causing an issue with the bike not spinning freely. We thought that should have fixed the problem.
Then when it happened again we knew we had already checked everything so it was really frustrating. This time we had another NC700 in the shop to compare and what we found while testing the motor on that one that it turned with more force than yours. Now the only test for the motor is to put power directly to it which we tested every time it was here and it spun. But having the other bike here let us see that your motor was not as strong as the other motor. So with the new battery, new PCM, new clutch pack, new shifter motor and the numerous hours of labor we were able to get the bike repaired. "
My dealer's service manager said the last repair bill (the shifting motor) was on the house but seems to imply that all other work was necessary. I disagree and already asked my credit cards to refund the charges from repair #1, #2 and #3 because they did nothing to fix the issue. Below is a message I received from the service manager. He blames my bike for having many problems and frankly, that is a bit insulting for someone who cherishes his bike like a pet.... What would you respond or should I not bother at this point? It is unclear to me whether they are expecting me pay for all 3 first repairs which totaled about $1,500 with theirs discounts. And reading his account on the other bike they took in the shop with DCT issues at 2,000 miles, sounds DCT bikes have bad karma in my neck of the woods...
Best,
T.
"The previous repairs all needed to be done to get the bike repaired. The bike had multiple issues that caused the problem. The low battery we had to del with because that's what the bike said was an issue when the unit first came in and hooked to the Honda Diagnostic System (HDS). Then after that and doing all the test from the service manual and from Honda tech line the results was replace the PCM with a know good one. while waiting for the PCM the technician pulled your clutches out to inspect even though Honda tech line told him it was no need to do so. He did find that one of your clutch packs did not spend freely in its case as designed. So he thought he could disassemble the unit to inspect and put back together but that is not recommended so we got you a new clutch pack, no charge to you. The clutch pack was causing an issue with the bike not spinning freely. We thought that should have fixed the problem.
Then when it happened again we knew we had already checked everything so it was really frustrating. This time we had another NC700 in the shop to compare and what we found while testing the motor on that one that it turned with more force than yours. Now the only test for the motor is to put power directly to it which we tested every time it was here and it spun. But having the other bike here let us see that your motor was not as strong as the other motor. So with the new battery, new PCM, new clutch pack, new shifter motor and the numerous hours of labor we were able to get the bike repaired. "
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D
Deleted member 1183
You are withholding payment so imho now is a good time to negotiate a mutually agreed settlement. Ideally Honda should be bearing much of the cost of this debacle as they can better afford to do so than the dealer.
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I have had issues with service departments before. I try not to fight about the labels that are put on things however wrong they may be and just try to settle it. The bottom line is are you happy with a $1500 bill for the work that had to be done to fix it. I don't think anyone really wins in this situation. The dealer put a lot of time and effort into it. How efficient that effort was is debatable. You were without a bike for the majority of the riding season. Maybe meet with the guy face to face and work out what you both think is fair/can live with.
Good luck
Good luck
Sounds more than a little complicated. I’m a little surprised that the dealer would wave the charge for the shifter motor but stick to his guns on the other elements. That would seem to indicate that Honda might be providing a little financial assistance to him in that regard. It sounds like the dealer was in uncharted territory with your bike - even to the point of having to compare the operation of certain parts to another bike he had in-shop at the time. No shame there - it happens in the wide wide world of vehicle repairs. There’s a first time for everything at every dealer and with every technician.
If it were me, I would give Honda one more phone call and run the final outcome (in parts and price) by them just to see if they think it all sounds reasonable given what you (the CUSTOMER) have had to endure - not the least of which was missing pretty much an entire riding season. They might surprise you. Then again, they might not, but you have nothing to lose.
Then it is just going to come down to how you want to look at it in terms of how they itemize it and tally it up. One thing to keep in mind is that you’ll want to maintain a decent relationship with this dealer down to road for obvious reasons... and how is the repair and parts to be warrantied by him (or Honda)? That would be another question I would run by the folks there at Honda as long as you have their ear.
I think I could rationalize the battery if it was about three years old. But I also think I would make one more attempt to whittle the total down some. But with the thought in mind that going forward, I now have pretty much a new bike down below, hopefully with a decent warranty on the parts, and with a friendly relationship with my dealer. Hard to put a value on some of that. Might be the the last dime you ever spend in “real repairs” with this bike as opposed to routine maintenance and averaged out over miles and years, that ain’t bad.
Hope that helps in some way. Best of luck to you.
If it were me, I would give Honda one more phone call and run the final outcome (in parts and price) by them just to see if they think it all sounds reasonable given what you (the CUSTOMER) have had to endure - not the least of which was missing pretty much an entire riding season. They might surprise you. Then again, they might not, but you have nothing to lose.
Then it is just going to come down to how you want to look at it in terms of how they itemize it and tally it up. One thing to keep in mind is that you’ll want to maintain a decent relationship with this dealer down to road for obvious reasons... and how is the repair and parts to be warrantied by him (or Honda)? That would be another question I would run by the folks there at Honda as long as you have their ear.
I think I could rationalize the battery if it was about three years old. But I also think I would make one more attempt to whittle the total down some. But with the thought in mind that going forward, I now have pretty much a new bike down below, hopefully with a decent warranty on the parts, and with a friendly relationship with my dealer. Hard to put a value on some of that. Might be the the last dime you ever spend in “real repairs” with this bike as opposed to routine maintenance and averaged out over miles and years, that ain’t bad.
Hope that helps in some way. Best of luck to you.
telecam
Site Supporter
FYI, battery had been replaced last December. Yes, it is a lithium battery but there is nothing wrong with that. The battery tests and works fine.
b_rubenstein
New Member
The technical staff at the dealer were incapable of diagnosing the root cause problem with the DTC and resorted to a trail and error approach of replacing components. Nothing resolved the problem until the shift motor was replaced. Did the dealer obtain authorization for all of their trail and error part replacement? If they didn't, then you shouldn't be responsible for paying for that work. If it were me, I rather pay a lawyer to take care of this than subsidize dealer incompetence.
lootzyan
Well-Known Member
Before you decide to hire a lawyer you should consider:
- First, to involve your state government. For Virginia you have Consumer Protection - Attorney General Division - Home.
- You can ask for assistance your local Chamber of Commerce.
- Talk to the dealer's top manager who, hopefully, better understands business. Do they really want to spend extra time and money to solve this problem? You have all time you need. They don't. Tell them that you will sue them in a local court (time consuming for them). You don't need a layer for this sum of money.
- First, to involve your state government. For Virginia you have Consumer Protection - Attorney General Division - Home.
- You can ask for assistance your local Chamber of Commerce.
- Talk to the dealer's top manager who, hopefully, better understands business. Do they really want to spend extra time and money to solve this problem? You have all time you need. They don't. Tell them that you will sue them in a local court (time consuming for them). You don't need a layer for this sum of money.
