Battery Charging? New to that!

[dduelin]

Bad idea. The charging rate of the car battery could be significantly higher than that of the motorcycle battery. The alternator on the car can generate enough current to overcharge and fry the motorcycle battery.

Many on here seem to think the voltage is all that matters, but it isn't. If you insist on connecting to a car battery anyway, do not start the car without knowing the charging rate of the motorcycle battery is high enough to handle the output from the cars alternator.

Yes, I took liberties with amperage but I am comfortable knowing that if the car had a good battery then the addition of an 11Ah NC700X battery to a car battery is 25% or less of the capacity of the combined batteries and the alternator at idle would only be replacing the few amps removed in the action of starting the car and the few amps the flat NC battery would take so the charge current in amps would be low. A battery will only accept the charge it can accept when using a regulated charging source and a car has a current regulator. The good car battery would damp the charge current produced by the car alternator. Still, then I suggested only doing this for 20 or 30 minutes. If the NC battery has a shorted cell and begins to overheat the short period of time would limit the possibility of overheating.

I also know that the battery in the NC and my ST1300 are virtually identical. The ST1300 uses a 740 Ah automotive type alternator to produce 55 amps of current at a nominal charge voltage of 13.6. IT"S JUST LIKE A CAR and it happily produces a flow of electrons that the 11.2 Ah ST1300 battery happily accepts year in and year out...... I'm comfortable doing what I advised but also said the OP might not be.

 

[showkey]

Sure is a lot of mis-information through out this thread..........far worse than the typical oil thread......at least oil thread are opinions........the facts or basic info given is just plain wrong.

JD.......12 volt batteries have 6 cells each produce 2.2 volts and an alternators current output is self regulating as DD stated

 

[turbodieseli4i6]

Yes, I took liberties with amperage but I am comfortable knowing that if the car had a good battery then the addition of an 11Ah NC700X battery to a car battery is 25% or less of the capacity of the combined batteries and the alternator at idle would only be replacing the few amps removed in the action of starting the car and the few amps the flat NC battery would take so the charge current in amps would be low. A battery will only accept the charge it can accept when using a regulated charging source and a car has a current regulator. The good car battery would damp the charge current produced by the car alternator. Still, then I suggested only doing this for 20 or 30 minutes. If the NC battery has a shorted cell and begins to overheat the short period of time would limit the possibility of overheating.

I also know that the battery in the NC and my ST1300 are virtually identical. The ST1300 uses a 740 Ah automotive type alternator to produce 55 amps of current at a nominal charge voltage of 13.6. IT"S JUST LIKE A CAR and it happily produces a flow of electrons that the 11.2 Ah ST1300 battery happily accepts year in and year out...... I'm comfortable doing what I advised but also said the OP might not be.

I put a 55 amp alternator from a car on my old Goldwing and it was the best thing I ever done to that bike.

 

[Johnny D]

Ahroo? 5 of 8 cells?

I am just guessing. Most MC batteries are 8 cell right? 1.5 volts per cell x 8 cells = 12 volts.

1.5 volts x 5 = 7.5 volts.

Sometimes if a battery is run down completely, you can have some damaged cells, while some will still hold a charge.

I see now that OP already got a new battery and it is working for him, so its kinda moot. But it is obvious that the old battery was bad. The charger was probably ok would be my guess.

If you need me to guess about anything else let me know

 

[showkey]

I am just guessing. Most MC batteries are 8 cell right? 1.5 volts per cell x 8 cells = 12 volts.

1.5 volts x 5 = 7.5 volts.

Sometimes if a battery is run down completely, you can have some damaged cells, while some will still hold a charge.

I see now that OP already got a new battery and it is working for him, so its kinda moot. But it is obvious that the old battery was bad. The charger was probably ok would be my guess.

If you need me to guess about anything else let me know

See post 122

The charger and its wiring and connections to the bike are still suspects......As well as the battery itself which resolved the problem but not obvious it was bad beyond charging???? ............But we may never know the root cause......unless it happens again and we start all over again.........the next time with a newer dead battery

 

[Johnny D]

Sure is a lot of mis-information through out this thread..........far worse than the typical oil thread......at least oil thread are opinions........the facts or basic info given is just plain wrong.

JD.......12 volt batteries have 6 cells each produce 2.2 volts and an alternators current output is self regulating as DD stated

You might be right on the number of cells, but I am unable to verify that. The NC700 battery is a YTZ 12S. This is a VRLA battery, not the traditional sealed lead acid type. This means it is either glass packed or a gell type. (this also means it is even more critical to not charge higher than the amperage rating) Yuasa website gives a lot of information but nowhere lists voltage per cell. Newer technology like lithium definitely are using 8 cells.

But my overall point is correct either way. The OPs battery obviously had bad cells in it.

As far as an alternators current being self-regulated, I am afraid you just added to the mis-information in the thread.

There is a Voltage regulator which is designed to keep the alternators output below about 14 volts. Regulation of Amperage is a function of load, not voltage. Anyone who does not understand the difference between Voltage and Amperage should NOT be giving any kind of advice about batteries.

For an easy to understand analogy ... connect one end of your jumper cables to your car battery. Take the other end and touch them together quickly. You will likely see sparks flying as you just closed a circuit that allowed the full Amperage of the battery to flow. There is no regulation. There is nothing automatic. There is no safety. The only guarantee is that the voltage will be approximately 12 volts or less until something melts, burns or explodes.

If you search youtube, you can find videos of guys doing arc welding using one or more car batteries. Newer model cars the voltage regulator is gone and replaced by a computer. What will happen to that expensive engine computer (ECU) if you do some arc welding with your battery terminals? If you are very lucky, you might not have to replace it and your car will still run.

[video=youtube;PV5oLPLUzrM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV5oLPLUzrM[/video]

If you have the car running, the potential for current flow is even higher. My car has a good battery in it. It can output over 700 CCA, or cold cranking amps. Adding that current to the Alternator current will boost the power even more.

To summarize, there is ZERO regulation of current if you connect jumper cables directly to a battery. The only assurance that you have is that the voltage will remain somewhere under 13 volts because of the design of the battery. But the full amperage of the battery is just waiting for a closed path. If the conductor cannot handle the 500-700 amps it will burn, melt or explode. And if the other end is a smaller battery rated at 11AH, you will fry the battery.

The VRLA battery in the NC700X requires even more care than a sealed lead acid type:

* Have longer recharge time than flooded lead-acid.
* Cannot tolerate overcharging: overcharging leads to premature failure.

Wikipedia has a decent write-up on VRLA batteries here.

 

[Johnny D]

unless it happens again and we start all over again.........the next time with a newer dead battery

hehehe. The thread is so long I already forgot the beginning

 

[showkey]

As far as an alternators current being self-regulated, I am afraid you just added to the mis-information in the thread.

There is a Voltage regulator which is designed to keep the alternators output below about 14 volts. Regulation of Amperage is a function of load, not voltage. Anyone who does not understand the difference between Voltage and Amperage should NOT be giving any kind of advice about batteries.

For an easy to understand analogy ... connect one end of your jumper cables to your car battery. Take the other end and touch them together quickly. You will likely see sparks flying as you just closed a circuit that allowed the full Amperage of the battery to flow. There is no regulation. There is nothing automatic. There is no safety. The only guarantee is that the voltage will be approximately 12 volts or less until something melts, burns or explodes.




If you have the car running, the potential for current flow is even higher. My car has a good battery in it. It can output over 700 CCA, or cold cranking amps. Adding that current to the Alternator current will boost the power even more.

To summarize, there is ZERO regulation of current if you connect jumper cables directly to a battery. The only assurance that you have is that the voltage will remain somewhere under 13 volts because of the design of the battery. But the full amperage of the battery is just waiting for a closed path. If the conductor cannot handle the 500-700 amps it will burn, melt or explode. And if the other end is a smaller battery rated at 11AH, you will fry the battery.

The VRLA battery in the NC700X requires even more care than a sealed lead acid type:

* Have longer recharge time than flooded lead-acid.
* Cannot tolerate overcharging: overcharging leads to premature failure.

Wikipedia has a decent write-up on VRLA batteries here.

You miss the point alternators regulate VOLTAGE not current. We are not talking about direct shorts with jumper cable across the battery.......full current will flow and you will have an arc welder.
We are talking about amperage or current flow from the alternator. Generators back in the day had both voltage and current regulator coils.

If we were to install two batteries in the NC the alternator would charge both but it would take twice as long to reach full charge. The current flow would be same possiblely at full a output and as they (batteries) reach full charge the voltage will raise to about 13.6 -14.0 and current will taper to near zero all by itself.

 

[670cc]

I guess we can end debate about proper "recommended" charge rates for the Yuasa YTZ12S since they're printed right on the battery case. As I mentioned before the best charge rate is 1/10 the amp hour rating, but I see now a rapid charge of 1/2 the amp hour rating is allowed.



Greg

 

[showkey]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A perfect place to end...................I am done........going for a long ride on perfect day

 

[dduelin]

You might be right on the number of cells, but I am unable to verify that. The NC700 battery is a YTZ 12S. This is a VRLA battery, not the traditional sealed lead acid type. This means it is either glass packed or a gell type. (this also means it is even more critical to not charge higher than the amperage rating) Yuasa website gives a lot of information but nowhere lists voltage per cell. Newer technology like lithium definitely are using 8 cells.

But my overall point is correct either way. The OPs battery obviously had bad cells in it.

As far as an alternators current being self-regulated, I am afraid you just added to the mis-information in the thread.

There is a Voltage regulator which is designed to keep the alternators output below about 14 volts. Regulation of Amperage is a function of load, not voltage. Anyone who does not understand the difference between Voltage and Amperage should NOT be giving any kind of advice about batteries.

For an easy to understand analogy ... connect one end of your jumper cables to your car battery. Take the other end and touch them together quickly. You will likely see sparks flying as you just closed a circuit that allowed the full Amperage of the battery to flow. There is no regulation. There is nothing automatic. There is no safety. The only guarantee is that the voltage will be approximately 12 volts or less until something melts, burns or explodes.

If you search youtube, you can find videos of guys doing arc welding using one or more car batteries. Newer model cars the voltage regulator is gone and replaced by a computer. What will happen to that expensive engine computer (ECU) if you do some arc welding with your battery terminals? If you are very lucky, you might not have to replace it and your car will still run.

[video=youtube;PV5oLPLUzrM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV5oLPLUzrM[/video]

If you have the car running, the potential for current flow is even higher. My car has a good battery in it. It can output over 700 CCA, or cold cranking amps. Adding that current to the Alternator current will boost the power even more.

To summarize, there is ZERO regulation of current if you connect jumper cables directly to a battery. The only assurance that you have is that the voltage will remain somewhere under 13 volts because of the design of the battery. But the full amperage of the battery is just waiting for a closed path. If the conductor cannot handle the 500-700 amps it will burn, melt or explode. And if the other end is a smaller battery rated at 11AH, you will fry the battery.

The VRLA battery in the NC700X requires even more care than a sealed lead acid type:

* Have longer recharge time than flooded lead-acid.
* Cannot tolerate overcharging: overcharging leads to premature failure.

Wikipedia has a decent write-up on VRLA batteries here.

You certainly learned a lot this morning surfing the internet. It took me 40 years of messing around in the garage and marina.

12 volt lead acid batteries have 6 cells regardless if they are sealed or flooded. Of that you no longer have to guess.

 

[670cc]

Sure is a lot of mis-information through out this thread..........far worse than the typical oil thread......at least oil thread are opinions........the facts or basic info given is just plain wrong.

Agreed, showkey. I just finally read this thread all the way through. Not that i know it all, but having a degree in electronics and making a living with that knowledge, I found it quite amusing reading the common public's misconceptions about the properties of electricity, electric devices, and units of measure.

It's better than an octane thread;it's just like a good old oil thread.

My advice to Strat: You should want a reliable battery in a motorcycle, lest you become stranded. A battery measuring 7.5 volts is severely discharged and has suffered some damage. There is a charger out there that will probably bring it back to life, albeit with reduced capacity. Unless you have the time, tools, and knowledge to baby it along, you should be skeptical of that battery's long term reliability. Replace it and write off the cost as tuition in the School of Battery Care.

The Yuasa brand replacement battery is very expensive compared to the "Walmart" type, but I have had the cheap ones fail in as little as a year. I would buy the Yuasa brand but you can decide yourself if it's worth it to you.

There is no reason for any fuse to have opened ("blown") due to this chain of events.

Greg

 

[Johnny D]

You miss the point alternators regulate VOLTAGE not current.

I thought that this is pretty much exactly what I said. I went back and re-read my post, and sure enough, that is EXACTLY what I said

There is a Voltage regulator which is designed to keep the alternators output below about 14 volts. Regulation of Amperage is a function of load, not voltage.

 

[670cc]

You might be right on the number of cells, but I am unable to verify that. The NC700 battery is a YTZ 12S. This is a VRLA battery, not the traditional sealed lead acid type. This means it is either glass packed or a gell type. (this also means it is even more critical to not charge higher than the amperage rating) Yuasa website gives a lot of information but nowhere lists voltage per cell. Newer technology like lithium definitely are using 8 cells.

But my overall point is correct either way. The OPs battery obviously had bad cells in it.

As far as an alternators current being self-regulated, I am afraid you just added to the mis-information in the thread.

There is a Voltage regulator which is designed to keep the alternators output below about 14 volts. Regulation of Amperage is a function of load, not voltage. Anyone who does not understand the difference between Voltage and Amperage should NOT be giving any kind of advice about batteries.

For an easy to understand analogy ... connect one end of your jumper cables to your car battery. Take the other end and touch them together quickly. You will likely see sparks flying as you just closed a circuit that allowed the full Amperage of the battery to flow. There is no regulation. There is nothing automatic. There is no safety. The only guarantee is that the voltage will be approximately 12 volts or less until something melts, burns or explodes.

If you search youtube, you can find videos of guys doing arc welding using one or more car batteries. Newer model cars the voltage regulator is gone and replaced by a computer. What will happen to that expensive engine computer (ECU) if you do some arc welding with your battery terminals? If you are very lucky, you might not have to replace it and your car will still run.

[video=youtube;PV5oLPLUzrM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV5oLPLUzrM[/video]

If you have the car running, the potential for current flow is even higher. My car has a good battery in it. It can output over 700 CCA, or cold cranking amps. Adding that current to the Alternator current will boost the power even more.

To summarize, there is ZERO regulation of current if you connect jumper cables directly to a battery. The only assurance that you have is that the voltage will remain somewhere under 13 volts because of the design of the battery. But the full amperage of the battery is just waiting for a closed path. If the conductor cannot handle the 500-700 amps it will burn, melt or explode. And if the other end is a smaller battery rated at 11AH, you will fry the battery.

The VRLA battery in the NC700X requires even more care than a sealed lead acid type:

* Have longer recharge time than flooded lead-acid.
* Cannot tolerate overcharging: overcharging leads to premature failure.

Wikipedia has a decent write-up on VRLA batteries here.

There is indeed regulation in the circuit if you connect the jumper cables directly across the battery. The cables are not perfect conductors and have resistance. The battery also has an internal resistance value. The voltage will be different when the battery is loaded versus unloaded. Therefore you can calculate the regulation.

The formula for percent regulation is the no load voltage minus the full load voltage divided by the full load voltage, all times 100.

When connecting the cables directly across the battery, you will see much less than 12 volts at the terminals, due to the internal resistance of the battery. There will equally be an external voltage drop in the cables which is the current times the cable resistance (IxR = E). There will not be 12 volts seen anywhere in the circuit under this high current condition.

Greg

 

[Mike Cash]

I find it interesting that despite the overwhelming flood of information and disinformation thrown his way, Strat's choice of action in this case matched the suggestion of the person who knows probably the least about the subject and said absolutely nothing about electricity.

 

[L.B.S.]

I find it interesting that despite the overwhelming flood of information and disinformation thrown his way, Strat's choice of action in this case matched the suggestion of the person who knows probably the least about the subject and said absolutely nothing about electricity.

*guffaw*

Boolean Logic or Chaos Theory evincing itself?

 

[Mike Cash]

*guffaw*

Boolean Logic or Chaos Theory evincing itself?

Occam's Razor.

 

[Johnny D]

There is indeed regulation in the circuit if you connect the jumper cables directly across the battery. The cables are not perfect conductors and have resistance. The battery also has an internal resistance value.

I agree that there is resistance etc. But the discussion of "regulation" was less theoretical and more about the belief on the part of some that the alternator on a car is designed to regulate the charging rate of a motorcycle battery connected by jumper cables. Surely you don't believe that too?

 

[Johnny D]

The Yuasa brand replacement battery is very expensive compared to the "Walmart" type, but I have had the cheap ones fail in as little as a year. I would buy the Yuasa brand but you can decide yourself if it's worth it to you.

Yes it is interesting that Honda went with what looks like a pretty decent battery. Interesting choice considering other cost-saving decisions. Maybe they weighed cost savings with reliability factors ... and even size and weight decisions. I am guessing again

 

[Johnny D]

You certainly learned a lot this morning surfing the internet. It took me 40 years of messing around in the garage and marina.

12 volt lead acid batteries have 6 cells regardless if they are sealed or flooded. Of that you no longer have to guess.

Well I like to provide links to reference material for those who are still messing around