2016 BMW R1200RS - Talk me off the edge

[L.B.S.]

Some of you may know I'm not the guy to sing the praises of BMW, but sure, that is one darned sexy looking machine ld_rider!

I see absolutely no problem with lusting after whatever bike it is that rubs your rhubarb the right way, lol.

All the myriad reasons for me personally buying an NCX in the first place, instantly relegated every other bike to "also ran" status, so if it was replaced with a sexy, powerful, sporty, high-tech expensive wunderbike, ironically, everything I *didn't* want in a bike at this point, it would be kind of silly for me to even contemplate.

I wanted a pick up truck with a small canopy, I won't be looking to replace it with a Ferrari...

 

[pprior]

Beemer you do have a point about the Harley guys.... lol [emoji23]


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[670cc]

Consumer Reports should stick to toaster ovens and refrigerators, where their ratings scheme makes sense.

I don't think the chart posted earlier in the thread is based off Consumer Report's testing or product ratings. I thought, based on the language above the chart, that it's a statistical prediction of expected failure rate based on the results from surveys received back from 11,000 subscribers. I don't know the science of statistics, so maybe that's not worded correctly, but I see no reason to poo-poo the chart without evidence to the contrary.

If you look at the paragraph at the top you will see that the average mileage is 3,800 miles per year. Implied in that is that half of the bikes get less mileage than that. My neighbor has a 2004 Harley with less than 5,000 miles on it. How many miles do you think the average BMW gets in a year? And what is a "repair"? It is a nice chart but it begs as many questions as it provides answers.

I don't know how many miles BMWs average. I took a quick peek at the local craigslist ads. There were two by owner locally, a 16 year old with 19,000 miles, and a 10 year old with 31,000 miles.

I've seen the CR surveys in the past when I subscribed. I think they leave it to interpretation as to what is a significant repair. I don't think they drill down to dollar amounts or downtime impact. If owners were overall pleased with the machine, they may downplay the significance of the failure, and vice versa for displeased owners. If Can-Am, BMW, and Ducati owners themselves are reporting a high number of what they consider to be "repairs", well I don't see how that can be a good thing, no matter how you look at it.

 

[Deleted member 1183]

If you can afford one of these then you can also afford to keep the NC alongside it. I suggest getting the BM, and if the NC is still gathering dust after 12 months or so then get rid of it.

I have my NC alongside other bikes and all get used.

 

[kpinvt]

Life is short. Jump!

 

[Normsthename]

I would love a BMW but the horror stories of the dreaded Final Drives scare me away.
Has the Final Drive been sorted on the Watercooled models?
I borrowed a R1200GS Watercooled bike for the day while mine was being serviced, it's a fantastic engine!

Andy

 

[Beemerphile]

...I see no reason to poo-poo the chart without evidence to the contrary.

I am not poo-pooing the chart without evidence to the contrary, I am reading it. It does not say "significant repair" it says "repair". So, a balky turn signal and a lunched transmission would each count "one"; a bike with 50K miles in four years would be measured as a simple repair count against a bike with 5K miles, no? Their statement that differences of less than 10 points are statistically meaningless is key. GregC's conclusion that there are two statistically significant classes represented (Japanese bikes and everything else) is correct. I don't know anyone who would argue against the conclusion that Japanese bikes are more reliable, myself included.

I don't know how many miles BMWs average. I took a quick peek at the local craigslist ads. There were two by owner locally, a 16 year old with 19,000 miles, and a 10 year old with 31,000 miles.

And I bought a 22 year old R100RS that hadn't been ridden in 15 years. There are outliers at both ends. BMW has a "million miles on BMW club". I failed at my toaster challenge, but what other marque has something similar? Maybe a million beers on a Harley.

If Can-Am, BMW, and Ducati owners themselves are reporting a high number of what they consider to be "repairs", well I don't see how that can be a good thing, no matter how you look at it.

It is not a good thing, but it is back to whether that is the only criteria. Some think that the exotics are worth the trouble and others do not. That is why they make (and sell) both kinds. Many more people choose Honda than choose BMW. I have heard that Honda's advertising budget is larger than the combined list price of all BMW's sold. That makes sense. Personally, I am not afraid of fixing them when they break. I treat them like fighter planes. If they can do the mission and get me home, then they have succeeded. My BMW's have done this well. I've replaced some parts along the way, but it was expected and accepted.

If you can afford one of these then you can also afford to keep the NC alongside it. I suggest getting the BM, and if the NC is still gathering dust after 12 months or so then get rid of it.

That is my plan. But it doesn't look like it will take 12 months to get the answer. There is more to it than whether I can afford both, I can. There is a "life complication factor" from owning the additional bike that needs to be outweighed by the joy (or utility) of ownership. I can see ld_rider considering whether to keep both. The R1200RS and the NC700 do different things well. My RS and GS do something different for me and both have a place. However, the NC and the GS have the same mission profile and one of them will most likely go. The decision has not yet been made, but unless the BMW shows itself to be a complete PITA to own, it is shaping up as the one that I would much rather ride. My new GS could prove to be as bad as Lane's F800, or as good as the other BMW's I have owned. Time will tell.

I guess I am just the counter-point here, and that is expected and proper on a Honda forum. All I am suggesting is that ld_rider's decision is deeper than one "survey" chart from a magazine that has no interest in motorcycles. The advantages of the R1200RS don't show up on that chart. Whether what shows up on that chart outweighs those advantages is for each buyer to weigh and decide. I have ridden and owned BMW RS motorcycles since 1977 and they possess magic abilities to entertain. I have ridden the R1200RS and it oozes with the stuff. The main disclaimer with the RS has always been whether the ergonomics work for you.

It is easy for me to choose between a reliable bike and one that I love. It becomes stupid easy if the one I love is reliable.

 

[happy]

The only reason that I don't get a BMW is that I don't ride enough.

Another reason may be that more care is needed compared to a fussfree Honda.

Some riders like that. They want to tinker with and maintain their machines. And that's totally a good thing.

A HD rider will either have good mechanic skills, or know a great mechanic or has loads of money to send to a HD workshop.

All the above are choices. Known choices made by people.
More experienced riders will choose wisely and maybe even make riskier choices because they know.

If you should go around the world with a stock new BMW without spare parts, good luck to you.

Similarly if you go with a similarly new Honda, I'd bet it is going to be troublefree for longer.

It can still break down and die on you. But who's gonna tell? Either bike can break but who is gonna ***** about which bike? (Probably the guy who paid more money and expected more)

BMWs are very desirable. For the tech and also for the brand prestige.
Some people are past that, but the majority of riders get wowed by the badge alone.

So are Ducatis.
Would I pass up a chance to own a "dream" bike?
If you can afford it, just do it. You never know what tomorrow brings.





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[wickerman]

Every choice in life is a trade off, as long as is you go in aware of this and make an informed decision you will be ahead of the game. Many other riders think our choice of the NC is wrong, "it's too slow", "it will barely break 100 mph", "DCT is not a REAL motorcycle". We have weighed the options and decided it is the right bike for us. As long as you are happy with your bike who cares what others may think, just get out and ride!

 

[ld_rider]

If, IF the BMW finds it way to my garage this Spring the idea of keeping the NC makes a lot of sense to me. One, the resale value is soooooo low I would lose thousands. For the few grand I could get for it, I might as well keep it! The bike is just about <perfect> for my 60 mile round-trip ride to work every day. We all know how inexpensive these bikes are to run and maintain and as a commuter it is great!

On the other hand (warning: rationalization coming!)...

I miss the effortless, drama-free, high speed, mile after mile devouring that a bike with 100+ hp gives me. Fully loaded my NC wouldn't break the speed limit on some interstates out west. Up hill on a 6 percent grade was too much. Not the NC's fault at all....mostly mine for trying to make the motorcycle do something it wasn't ever intended to do...duh!

The chain! The sprockets! I haven't had a chain driven bike in 30 years..I found out I don't like them. At all. Again, not a surprise, the chain was clearly visible when I bought the bike ;-)

I have never owned a BMW motorcycle. I know they can be problematic...But, they must have SOMETHING really awesome going for them for their owners to be so passionate. Well, that is what I'm thinking anyway.

My director's GS puked its final drive last year...Four year old bike and it cost him $2,600 to repair the damage...About 31,000 miles on it. Guess what he showed up with a week ago? ANOTHER GS! Brand-new. He isn't an idiot (I don't think) so there must be something going on there....I put 144,000 miles on my last Honda motorcycle and other than regular maintenance all I did was replace the alternator...

I appreciate all the comments and honestly, the biggest (but not the only) reason for not pulling the trigger on either the R or RS model is the idea that in a year and a half (36,000 miles) I'm out of a factory warranty and I can get hammered with a wallet shredding repair. I have a 5 (!) year Honda factory unlimited mileage warranty on my NC and by the end of that last year will be close to 75 or 80 thousand miles..that gives me some piece of mind if for example my DCT turns into a grenade one day struggling up an interstate hill at 80 mph ;-)

 

[ld_rider]

I would love a BMW but the horror stories of the dreaded Final Drives scare me away.
Has the Final Drive been sorted on the Watercooled models?

I think the jury is still out on the water-cooled boxers since they haven't been out all that long. I do know (as a long-term member of the K1600 forum) that BMW finally learned how to put a final drive together properly and their big water-cooled inline mile munching K1600 hasn't had any final drive issues. Plenty of other issues though ;-)

 

[670cc]

My director's GS puked its final drive last year...Four year old bike and it cost him $2,600 to repair the damage...About 31,000 miles on it. Guess what he showed up with a week ago? ANOTHER GS! Brand-new. He isn't an idiot (I don't think) so there must be something going on there....I put 144,000 miles on my last Honda motorcycle and other than regular maintenance all I did was replace the alternator...

This scenerio might suggest that poor reliability is not always an impediment to sales success. With that going for them at BMW, improving reliability is perhaps made a lower priority, as long as it doesn't hit the warranty cost line too badly.

If enough people like your director just willingly plunk down more money when their bike fails prematurely, who could argue about that business model?!

After watching my riding buddy in the '80s and '90s fiddle with his boxer twin's quirks and problems, I have forever lost any desire to purchase one.

 

[Beemerphile]

When the final drives give problems, there are almost always some clues and a build-up to catastrophic failure. Some start with a weeping seal, in fact, a seal replacement is often all that is needed. If the big bearing is starting to go, there is some play in the wheel that can be felt with a 6-12 o-clock and 3-9 o'clock wiggle test. If the bearing is replaced in time, there is little drama and no final drive replacement needed. If one waits until it blows the back end off the bike, then in most cases, they haven't been very observant of the condition of the machine. Even if you toast the final drive, used ones are available at under $1,000. I can't see the oft-mentioned $3-4,000 repairs unless it is all factory-fresh parts dealer installed. I would never do that.

It should not be necessary to ever mess with the final drive and they should be ashamed. The argument with the business model being ok is that you don't grow a business by keeping the customers you have, you grow it by attracting new ones. Issues like this scare off new customers as it probably should. BMW has been building shaft drive motorcycles since 1923. Other than driveshafts on the R100GS paralever models, there were almost never any problems until the oilheads came along. Since then, there have been spotty problems all along. I kept a spare final drive boxed and ready to ship for my R1150. I showed my wife where it was in the shop and told her I might call one day from BFE and ask her to Next Day it to me. Never happened. I know a guy with a wethead that had a bearing show problems at 53K miles. He changed the bearing. So I guess it isn't over. But it is better. K bikes have always had fewer drive problems. Some have said that the 3 and 4 cylinder torque pulses are easier on the drive system than the larger pulses from the boxer. I don't know if that is fact or fiction.

 

[MichaelJohn]

Personally when a zero can get 200 miles on the highway that's the one I can't resist. Can't wait to get an electric with enough range. The Bmw is sexy but those numbers don't lie

You are going to have a loooong wait. High speed is the Achilles heel of electrics. On the highway I can get maybe 80 miles at 70mph. The wind drag is just too much to overcome with the current Zeros' batteries and poor aerodynamics.

And if we are lusting after Beemers, I'll take this one:

Twice the torque and three times the horsepower of our NCs at the same weight. Can you imagine!?

 

[itlives]

There's a big difference between you Beemer and the average Beemite. You know what you're doing when it comes to keeping any (from what I can tell) motorcycle in tip top shape. That is a big part of all those trouble free miles you've enjoyed. It's a lot easier to "fix" it before it breaks (in BFE).

Not that LD_rider asked but if you want a trouble free, shaft driven ,large displacement (albeit sub-100 hp) bike, you should go check out the 2014+ Super Tenere. A lot less money.....

 

[woppyvac]

The Ducati Multistrada is the crown jewel. That bike is above and beyond amazing.

 

[ChilliRider]

The Ducati Multistrada is the crown jewel. That bike is above and beyond amazing.

Yes, if we are talking "dream bikes" that would be it for me, too. Or the GS1200. Or hell, if money were no object why not both? But if money were no object then I could also afford to have them dealer maintained, too.

Most of the BMW owners I know fall into one of two categories: there are those like Beemerphile who are really good at maintaining their bikes themselves and love to do it, and another group for whom money is not a problem and will simply pay the price of owning a BMW because of the perceived benefits (and style).

My wife was on a BMW 650 on a trip we made to Europe and she loved it. When we got home I started to look around for one but the reviews (engine mostly) put me off. I am not a guy who has the mechanical aptitude to successfully maintain my bikes beyond the most basic installs/oil change, and the price of maintaining a BMW (even a 650) would break my budget.

So... I will be very happy with my NC750 despite admiring the Ducatis and BMWs when I see them.

 

[Beemerphile]

There's a big difference between you Beemer and the average Beemite. You know what you're doing when it comes to keeping any (from what I can tell) motorcycle in tip top shape.

Sometimes you have to take parts off of it and check things out... measure, fiddle, adjust, clean, and occasionally replace.

R1150R


R100RS

 

[Beemerphile]

I have found that as big as the BMW guys talk, if you take an NC700 to a BMW Rally it gets some interest.

View attachment 28947

This lady had an F800 that she wished was at the bottom of Seneca Lake...

View attachment 28948

More curious Beemer folks...

View attachment 28949

 

[Normsthename]

Sometimes you have to take parts off of it and check things out...

The Dry Clutch is another reason I won't have a earlier twin (owned a couple....) the bike has to be stripped down to a silly level to replace the clutch (see above photo!)
My last R1200RT clutch started to slip with only 25,000 miles on the clock
They have moved the clutch to the front of the engine (and changed it to a wet clutch) on the Watercooled bikes which makes a lot of sense!

Andy