Totaled CTX700N / DCT operating by itself?

[John Doo]

Unfortunately my wife totaled her CTX 700N with DCT a few weeks ago (this one Mounted white OEM cases - Honda CTX700 Forum ). Fortunately without great harm, "just" a sprained left underarm. The circumstances however are a bit weird. She was maneuvering the bike backwards on a parking lot when suddenly the revs went high and the bike being in D-mode rushed forward and slammed into a pile of pavement stones (the parking lot was at a DIY store). She does not remember if she operated the gas lever or not. Therefore we are not sure if this was a men made error or something wrong with the bike.


Last night I was visiting the German NC700 forum (Regen & plötzlich bleibt das Standgas zu hoch. Warum ?? ? NC700X/NC750X | NC700S/NC750S | Integra 700/750 Forum ), I own a NC750X, where a thread was started about high stationary revs but at post #3 a similar story pops up by somebody who had a similar story, his friend was waiting in front of a traffic light with a DCT NC model, arms crossed over each other (!) when the same happened, also this bike rushed f'ward and slammed into the cars in front of her, she was less lucky and ended up in hospital. In this tread some more of these stories are mentioned.



The discussion at the German forum is inconclusive if the DCT models are capable of technically raising the revs and operating the clutch basket by itself. What is your opinion? And are there any similar stories in the USA or Canada?

She did order a new one that will be delivered tomorrow but she is scared as **** that it will happen again. I do not know what to think about it, to me it is technically not possible (I'm a trained merchant marine engineer with some technical insight) but I've insufficient information to draw my own conclusions. Any help and insight will be much appreciated.



Greetings,
John

PS: This message was also posted at the CTX700forum.com

 

[johnakay]

has any one mention this to Honda??
it definitely needs looking into.

 

[ste7ios]

DCT has no control over throttle. 100% it is caused by the rider. An unwilling error which causes panic and something like whiskey throttle.

It's not difficult. The gear is engaged, the engine is very strong at low RPMs... I have done it several times. So when I'm maneuvering I always turn the D/S-N switch to N. I also did this with my Piaggio MP3 but the engine was so weak that was barely noticed.

 

[ld_rider]

Many inexperienced riders will select the DCT version...My guess is operator error. I can easily picture someone trying to push a quarter-ton of motorcycle backwards (while it is in gear and running) inadvertently twisting the throttle as they back-peddle.

Even experienced riders can be fooled by the DCT if they aren't paying attention. I know of one (blush) that was at stop sign and decided to "blip" the throttle while waiting for traffic to clear. Yes, the bike was in gear...

As far as the "crossed-arms" incident, I would wait for a full explanation from the party directly involved, not a friend that heard it from a friend.

Last, if one searches long enough on the internet, they can find support for just about any theory, so you have to be a bit careful as to what constitutes real evidence vs rumor or innuendo..

To the OP: Very sorry to hear of the accident, hope everything turns out ok

 

[670cc]

DCT has no control over throttle. 100% it is caused by the rider. An unwilling error which causes panic and something like whiskey throttle.

It's not difficult. The gear is engaged, the engine is very strong at low RPMs... I have done it several times. So when I'm maneuvering I always turn the D/S-N switch to N. I also did this with my Piaggio MP3 but the engine was so weak that was barely noticed.

I agree with the above ^^^^^.

Unlike the throttle by wire cars that have been in the news for unintended acceleration, the Honda 700/750 models have a plain old fashioned steel cable between the right grip and the throttle body. The dual clutch transmission has no control over the throttle plate. The computer, whether manual or DCT, does have control of the idle speed by way of an air idle control, within a range, but I don't see that launching the bike across an intersection or parking lot.

It's possible a throttle tube or cable could stick, but that would be possible on nearly any motorcycle, and not related to the DCT.

 

[Mike Cash]

Would it be misogynistic of me to notice one certain point the two accidents have in common?

 

[bduffey]

I have to disagree with a lot of the above statements. I own a 2013 DCT that is going into the shop next week for an issue with high revs on start-up. I have been riding off and on since 1968, so I don't think I qualify as a "inexperienced rider".

The machine, with hands not even on the throttle, will occasionally ( maybe one start out of ten ) jump up to around 2500 rpm when being started. It can be immediately throttled back. It happens on both cold and warm start-ups. I'm thinking that it is definitely a module issue, but as it's under warranty, I'm going to let the dealer handle it.

 

[John Doo]

I do agree what is stated. I also think that is a driver error however the people that we present at the traffic light accident as mentioned on the German forum saw the driver waiting with the arms crossed. I know eyewitnesses are not always the best source of information but it makes me wonder. Does anybody know what signals the DCT uses to engage? Is it possible that the idle revs are made so high by the EFI that the DCT engages?

Anyway I'm having a hard time to convince my wife that DCT is as safe as any other system. I hope she will overcome here fears and has the courage to get back in the saddle.

 

[kjang]

When I back up, I put the dct in neutral.

Ken

 

[Fuzzy]

I have to disagree with a lot of the above statements. I own a 2013 DCT that is going into the shop next week for an issue with high revs on start-up. I have been riding off and on since 1968, so I don't think I qualify as a "inexperienced rider".

The machine, with hands not even on the throttle, will occasionally ( maybe one start out of ten ) jump up to around 2500 rpm when being started. It can be immediately throttled back. It happens on both cold and warm start-ups. I'm thinking that it is definitely a module issue, but as it's under warranty, I'm going to let the dealer handle it.

High revs at start-up is one thing and the bike is in neutral to start so no safety issue. Have you had it rev high at other times with the engine warm and hands off the throttle? This would cause the incident.

 

[Fuzzy]

To me the OP's post is operator error. Pulling the bike backwards the right hand is on the throttle and if the throttle grip is rotated it will go in gear. I have had this happen but just barely so no significant acceleration and I am now in the habit of going to neutral if pulling the bike backwards.

I would like to know the true story of the German incident. I am frequently at stops with my hands off the grips doing whatever including just resting with my arms crossed. Made OCR envious of my DCT that I could do that and still instantly be in gear and moving when the light changed. Lots faster to twist and go than to grab a clutch and kick a shift lever first. 17,000 miles on my 2013 so far.

 

[johnakay]

Would it be misogynistic of me to notice one certain point the two accidents have in common?

use plain ingrish will ya f**k if I know what misogynistic means

 

[670cc]

Would it be misogynistic of me to notice one certain point the two accidents have in common?

Yes, I think you would be.

 

[ste7ios]

Every vehicle with a catalytic converter will rev-up to warm the catalyst as soon as possible.

 

[Fuzzy]

use plain ingrish will ya f**k if I know what misogynistic means

Englishman without a dictionary.

Interesting that the American who transplanted to Japan at an early age is the one here who knows all the obscure words of english.

 

[bigjeff]

Quote Originally Posted by Mike Cash View Post Would it be misogynistic of me to notice one certain point the two accidents have in common?

use plain ingrish will ya f**k if I know what misogynistic means

misogynistic: reflecting or exhibiting hatred, dislike, mistrust

 

[silverhound]

Would it be misogynistic of me to notice one certain point the two accidents have in common?

Perhaps and/or sexist as well but not necessarily inaccurate.

To the OP I am sorry to hear of your wife's accident and am glad she's ok. However, I have to agree that this situation was 100% rider error even IF the bike really revved up on its own. Backing up she should have been in N and when in D even at a standstill the operator should always have the brake applied. It's bad form whether in a car with an automatic transmission or on a bike to simply let the transmission idle while in D or use it to hold the vehicle in place rather than the brake. If for no other reason the brake light should be ON when stopped so that vehicles coming from behind know you are stopped.

It's not good that she seems to be apprehensive about the bike as she will be a "nervous rider" on the new one. You need to diplomatically explain to her that what she experienced was 100% preventable and as long as she doesn't repeat the same scenario or not apply the brake when stopped in D that a re-occurrence is very unlikely if not completely improbable. Of course, with also having a wife who rides and understanding the ramifications, I take no responsibility for the outcome of essentially telling your wife it was her fault. Is the couch in your house comfortable?

 

[John Doo]

Thank you all for the advice and the encouragements.


I made a small mistake when I wrote down what happened because she had finished backing up the bike when it rushed forward and she insists that she was not off balance, she does agree that it must have been herself that operated the throttle somehow. What 'scares' her is that the she can't recollect the somehow. Anyway after discussing what probably went wrong she herself came up with the suggestion to put it in N when backing up and manoeuvring and all other situations that she feels 'unhappy' about. That seems logical and some of you also mentioned this. I myself also have make this my own habit.

As for choosing DCT, it is not because she is inexperienced, for example she drove her BMW thumper from Rotterdam to Moskow (parked on the Red Square) and back without any problems despite the road conditions and Russian traffic. The reason to go for DCT is that the manual is not imported by Honda Netherlands so there is no other option. Due to her height the CTX fits her very well and needed no adjustments unlike the other bikes she owned, therefor the CTX seemed/was/still is a near perfect bike.

Tomorrow morning we will collect her new CTX700N DCT, she is still a bit uncertain to drive it back home so I will follow by car as a back up and we can swap places when needed.

 

[dduelin]

I'm glad she's getting back on the proverbial horse.

 

[OldJeff]

Thank you all for the advice and the encouragements.


I made a small mistake when I wrote down what happened because she had finished backing up the bike when it rushed forward and she insists that she was not off balance, she does agree that it must have been herself that operated the throttle somehow. What 'scares' her is that the she can't recollect the somehow. Anyway after discussing what probably went wrong she herself came up with the suggestion to put it in N when backing up and manoeuvring and all other situations that she feels 'unhappy' about. That seems logical and some of you also mentioned this. I myself also have make this my own habit.

As for choosing DCT, it is not because she is inexperienced, for example she drove her BMW thumper from Rotterdam to Moskow (parked on the Red Square) and back without any problems despite the road conditions and Russian traffic. The reason to go for DCT is that the manual is not imported by Honda Netherlands so there is no other option. Due to her height the CTX fits her very well and needed no adjustments unlike the other bikes she owned, therefor the CTX seemed/was/still is a near perfect bike.

Tomorrow morning we will collect her new CTX700N DCT, she is still a bit uncertain to drive it back home so I will follow by car as a back up and we can swap places when needed.

I was very happy to hear she was relatively uninjured. But this post made me even happier that she is being very calm and even in her analysis of what happened. Good luck to her and to you tomorrow!