DCT Issue

[telecam]

Not sure if this has been covered before but just in case...

I noticed that my 2013 NC700XD had developed a slight tendency to want to creep forward at stoplights, not enough to really be a problem but slightly annoying sometimes. I noticed that in the service manual there is a clutch learning mode/calibration routine that can be activated without the official programming box, using only the handlebar switchgear (yay Honda.) After performing the calibration, bingo... auto clutch was working perfectly again, no creep at all.


The procedure is as follows:

1. Fully warm the engine to normal operating temperature.

2. Make sure that the stop/run switch is in the 'run' position and then turn on the ignition switch while holding down the 'D' shift switch on the right handlebar. Hold down the 'D' switch until the MIL (engine icon) goes off. You should see the outline of the the gear selector box on the LCD display but it should be empty (no D or S, no gear shown).

3. Operate the shift selector switch as follows (one push for each): D-D-N-D-N . After this is done 'D' and 'S' should show in the gear indicator box, along with a '-' sign in the center flashing at approx. 2 second intervals. (If you see an 'L' in the display the engine is not warm enough, if so then shut off the ignition, start the bike and bring it up to normal operating temperature, shut it off, and start again at Step 2.)

4. Start the engine and let it idle. Do not touch the throttle. The calibration is complete when the D and S indicators disappear. Shut off the engine and the calibration process is complete. (If the '-' starts blinking rapidly at 1/2 second intervals then the calibration process failed, shut of the ignition and repeat from Step 2.)


I wouldn't advise messing with the calibration just for the hell of it, but if you are experiencing a minor running problem such as the one I described above it may help.

So my 6,200 miles NC700X stopped shifting gear today.... I did try the calibration procedure described above, was able to ride for a few minutes but then it got stuck in 2 and later in 4 and then nothing, wouldn't shift to any gear and not even start. I am sure the battery is good, I have had a lithium for 3 months and it worked like clockwork. Had it towed to local Honda. I suspect solenoid or something in the clutch electricals is broken. BTW, on the steps above, before going to step 4, do you need to turn the ignition OFF and ON prior to start the engine?

 

[670cc]

So my 8,500 miles NC700X stopped shifting gear today.... I did try the calibration procedure described above, was able to ride for a few minutes but then it got stuck in 2 and later in 4 and then nothing, wouldn't shift to any gear and not even start. I am sure the battery is good, I have had a lithium for 3 months and it worked like clockwork. Had it towed to local Honda. I suspect solenoid or something in the clutch electricals is broken. BTW, on the steps above, before going to step 4, do you need to turn the ignition OFF and ON prior to start the engine?

Please let us know the dealer’s diagnosis. It would be interesting if it’s another shifter pin failure, or some new problem we haven’t yet heard about.

 

[telecam]

Will do. Hopefully, they are knowledgeable fixing DCT clutches...

 

[dduelin]

What are the 'no-start' symptoms?

A fairly new non-standard battery draws my attention.

 

[telecam]

I really wish it is a bad battery but I sincerely doubt it is. When the issue first occurred, I had come to a stop light and the bike was in neutral with no gear displayed on the LCD, gear display was blank but everything displayed correctly. I switched the ignition off and back on a couple times, but the started button wouldn't work and the bike LCD showed that a gear was engaged (I think 3 or 4). I also tried to engage the gear by pressing the D and S button repetitively. Then, it eventually went in gear, worked for a miles or so. I stopped at an other traffic light and then, the gear displayed showed the bike was stuck in 3. I let it cool off for 30 minutes, tried to restart a couple times (after ignition was turned ON, I could hear some weird noise inside the engine, some elector mechanical clicking sounds. I tried to calibrate the clutch a couple times, bike started again, rode it for a mile and it got stuck again in third gear while ridding. I cam to a stop, and then bike got stuck in neutral (also N not display on the LCD), engine running fine, all electrical system fine (headlights, horn, etc...) but D/S mode button and UP and DOWN shifter buttons not responding. Then, I turn of off the engine, ignition off and back on. Gear display shows 3 is engage but started button doesn't respond. The lithium battery is 6 months hold, has been working flawlessly and as I can tell, still has plenty of juice. Pressing the horn with all lights on doesn't dim the light and the horn sounds clear and loud. I'll go to the dealership tomorrow and try to start it on a fresh battery but I am pessimistic. I feel something is wrong the DCT.

 

[670cc]

I really wish it is a bad battery but I sincerely doubt it is. When the issue first occurred, I had come to a stop light and the bike was in neutral with no gear displayed on the LCD, gear display was blank but everything displayed correctly. I switched the ignition off and back on a couple times, but the started button wouldn't work and the bike LCD showed that a gear was engaged (I think 3 or 4). I also tried to engage the gear by pressing the D and S button repetitively. Then, it eventually went in gear, worked for a miles or so. I stopped at an other traffic light and then, the gear displayed showed the bike was stuck in 3. I let it cool off for 30 minutes, tried to restart a couple times (after ignition was turned ON, I could hear some weird noise inside the engine, some elector mechanical clicking sounds. I tried to calibrate the clutch a couple times, bike started again, rode it for a mile and it got stuck again in third gear while ridding. I cam to a stop, and then bike got stuck in neutral (also N not display on the LCD), engine running fine, all electrical system fine (headlights, horn, etc...) but D/S mode button and UP and DOWN shifter buttons not responding. Then, I turn of off the engine, ignition off and back on. Gear display shows 3 is engage but started button doesn't respond. The lithium battery is 6 months hold, has been working flawlessly and as I can tell, still has plenty of juice. Pressing the horn with all lights on doesn't dim the light and the horn sounds clear and loud. I'll go to the dealership tomorrow and try to start it on a fresh battery but I am pessimistic. I feel something is wrong the DCT.

I’m not sure how all the symptoms line with a similar episode we had just a couple weeks ago, but it just might be the shifter pin issue again. If you haven’t read this thread yet, check it out: DCT Fault. Argh!. If the dealer turns up totally clueless, at least let them know about this potential issue.

 

[telecam]

I did read through that thread but in my case, not error message comes up on the LCD. The starter won't just work and the bike shows it's stuck in gear 3...

 

[telecam]

And so I beg to ask... Is there any chance that a weak or faulty battery would make the DCT misbehave while riding? Isn't enough power provided by the alternator?

 

[dduelin]

And so I beg to ask... Is there any chance that a weak or faulty battery would make the DCT misbehave while riding? Isn't enough power provided by the alternator?

The DCT is dependent on a good clean source of 12V to operate properly. The alternator provides very little output at the low rpms where the NC700 lives and in particular the DCT shift points are around 2000 rpm where the alternator is probably not producing excess current to cope with both charging requirements and operating the shift drum motor/solenoids.

An intermittent battery connection fault will cause intermittent shift failures as well as no-start failures. A low state of charge could do the same thing. I mentioned the recent introduction of a non-standard battery. If the bike is not ridden long enough at high enough rpms the battery has been in a state of discharge and the battery, while perhaps new and "good" has steadily lost ground.

How long does the bike run each day or week and is there a battery tender or maintainer in use when the bike is not ridden?

 

[lootzyan]

The DCT is dependent on a good clean source of 12V to operate properly. The alternator provides very little output at the low rpms where the NC700 lives and in particular the DCT shift points are around 2000 rpm where the alternator is probably not producing excess current to cope with both charging requirements and operating the shift drum motor/solenoids.
...

Alternator generates about 70-75% of energy at an idle RPM (min. 14.2V). Most current is unused and shunted to the ground. The easiest way to check if battery is a supplier or receiver of energy, is to connect ammeter to battery and observe direction of current.

 

[showkey]

Fantasy maybe..........that really depends on the battery and it’s condition.

The tech at the dealer will a take one look at the non stock battery and if he has any brains and or skills. He will installl a known good battery and test drive. This will rule a the battery as a problem. There is no argument the NC and most other modern bikes need a good battery and good connections.........failing battery or failing power supply the bike will act out. This known good battery install will confirm this issue in the matter of minutes.

No testing, no meters, no wasted time just rule out the easy stuff first quickly.z

 

[lootzyan]

Fantasy maybe..........that really depends on the battery and it’s condition...

The fantasy is to say that NC700XD alternator "provides very little output at the low rpms".

Your stating here that NC needs a good battery is obvious to anybody riding or driving modern combustion engine vehicles (excluding push mowers) and it's unnecessary.

 

[showkey]

The fantasy is to say that NC700XD alternator "provides very little output at the low rpms".

Your stating here that NC needs a good battery is obvious to anybody riding or driving modern combustion engine vehicles (excluding push mowers) and it's unnecessary.

This question was asked:
And so I beg to ask... Is there any chance that a weak or faulty battery would make the DCT misbehave while riding? Isn't enough power provided by the alternator?

So I guess it is necessary to some. Your opinion varies.

If you really want to argue on the validity of other’s questions or answers we can end this. Or you restrain your comments.

 

[dduelin]

That's a total fantasy.
Alternator generates about 70-75% of energy at an idle RPM (min. 14.2V). Most current is unused and shunted to the ground. The easiest way to check if battery is a supplier or receiver of energy, is to connect ammeter to battery and observe direction of current.

(Moderator, if you don't like it - delete it again).

You are probably right and I overstated the low amount of alternator output at 2000 rpm. However there is an curve from 1000 rpm to max output at 5,000 rpm (IIRC ??) and without seeing the curve we don't really know the output at 2000 rpm. If the bike is not ridden much and at low rpms when it is I stand by my supposition.

Anyway, the Q was paraphrased "could a weak or faulty battery cause DCT problems?". Absolutely yes.

 

[ld_rider]

However there is an curve from 1000 rpm to max output at 5,000 rpm (IIRC ??) and without seeing the curve we don't really know the output at 2000 rpm.

Alternators have standard output measurments per either ISO or SAE, and they are often stamped right on the housing.

For example, a rating of 50/120A13.5V would mean that at idle or 1,500 rpms (standard 1) the output would be 50 amps. The second number (120) represents the output at a different rpm, typically 5,000 or 6,000 rpm, (standard 2). Since voltage, watts, and amperage are all related, the voltage must also be indicated (standard 3). Those three measurments allow you to compare efficiencies of various alternators at standard rpms and voltages. Apples to apples so to speak.

There is no standard I'm aware of for 2,000 rpm measurements so yes, you would need to see the output vs rpm curve or as posted, measure it.


I can't find the SAE or ISO rating of the NC's alternator so I'm not sure what the output is at 13.5v when idling. My factory manual says 420 watts at 5,000 rpm max.

There may be alternators that output 75% at idle, but I have not found any rated that high. Most alternators that I've seen with the SAE or ISO stamp on them indicated at idle they produced anywhere from 40-45% of full rated output, similar to my example given above.

If the NC's alternator is typical to those I've seen (and I have no idea if it is) then at idle it would produce about 45% of its rated 0.42kW output ...or about 190 watts. At 13.5 volts nominal, that would be about 14 amps at idle.

Note that the SAE and ISO ratings are for shaft rpm of the alternator, not the engine rpm. Most (all?) automotive alternators are spinning much faster than the engine rpm, not sure about the NC's alternator.

 

[lootzyan]

You are probably right and I overstated the low amount of alternator output at 2000 rpm. However there is an curve from 1000 rpm to max output at 5,000 rpm (IIRC ??) and without seeing the curve we don't really know the output at 2000 rpm. If the bike is not ridden much and at low rpms when it is I stand by my supposition.

Anyway, the Q was paraphrased "could a weak or faulty battery cause DCT problems?". Absolutely yes.

Just interpret what you see, without metering devices.
Start your bike and leave it running for about 1 hour. There is at least 100 W of load connected. If you right it should discharge battery fairly quickly.

 

[telecam]

So, to eliminate the battery issues, I went to the dealer yesterday and swapped batteries to test. It still did not start. I tried the clutch reset procedure 3 times and on the third attempt, I successfully reset it and was able to start the engine and ride the NC700X. I worked great for 15 minutes and then starting to act up again. Getting stuck on same gear and not shifting. I took it back to the dealer and will let them deal with it. Weird thing is that at no time, I saw an error message pop up. I would think any issue involving the DCT would generate some kind of error message on the LCD display? And I made a mistake earlier, my 2014 NC700X has only 6,500 miles, not 8,500 as stated earlier.

 

[670cc]

So, to eliminate the battery issues, I went to the dealer yesterday and swapped batteries to test. It still did not start. I tried the clutch reset procedure 3 times and on the third attempt, I successfully reset it and was able to start the engine and ride the NC700X. I worked great for 15 minutes and then starting to act up again. Getting stuck on same gear and not shifting. I took it back to the dealer and will let them deal with it. Weird thing is that at no time, I saw an error message pop up. I would think any issue involving the DCT would generate some kind of error message on the LCD display? And I made a mistake earlier, my 2014 NC700X has only 6,500 miles, not 8,500 as stated earlier.

The DCT firmware is not likely programmed in such great detail so as to post an error code for every single possible fault condition, especially mechanical faults. Let's hope the dealer service dept has some experience with the DCT, and that they find the root problem. I'll bet the Honda tech support line could share a thing or two with them that may not necessarily be public knowledge. If the dealer says they "couldn't find the exact problem", but "it's working now", quiz them until you get specific details as to what was found/done. It will benefit us all.

 

[dreamer]

DCT reset/initialization is not recommended when there is some fault with the DCT or any error code. It is not intended as a remedy to just any problem, but only to calibrate the clutches when they are replaced, worn to some extent or when ECU is replaced.

When there is a problem with the DCT there will be no error message, but there should be a flashing dash instead of gear number indicating a fault.

 

[telecam]

DCT Clutch Calibration

The DCT firmware is not likely programmed in such great detail so as to post an error code for every single possible fault condition, especially mechanical faults. Let's hope the dealer service dept has some experience with the DCT, and that they find the root problem. I'll bet the Honda tech support line could share a thing or two with them that may not necessarily be public knowledge. If the dealer says they "couldn't find the exact problem", but "it's working now", quiz them until you get specific details as to what was found/done. It will benefit us all.

Ok. Finger crossed... will keep you updated. I am afraid it’s gonna be a hit and miss kind of repair. At $110/hr, they better find the problem quick. Bike has only 6.5k miles and I am ready to raise hell with Honda. As in many areas, single Honda dealership inside the Washington beltway, huge backlog (they can’t take a look until July 24... ) and mostly poor customer reviews for that place. Why aren’t they more motorcycle shops in the US? When I lived in Paris, i could find a motorcycle repair shop every ten blocks.