Electric Motorcycles - Brammo & Zero

I rode a DS at a Zero Ride Event last year...

They are very fun to ride, very fast acceleration, very quiet. But I would never buy one.

First, they are too quiet. They don't make any noise except for the chain drive and tire noise. If you think loud pipes save lives, an electric bike is not for you. Cagers already don't notice motorcycles, imagine now that you are on a noiseless bike in a blindspot.

Mostly, they don't make much sense economically. A new NC700X costs less than $8,000....I got mine used with 700 miles on it for $5,000. A Zero DS will run you at least $13,500...the SR is over $17,000. The top end Brammo is almost $20,000! Max range is 150 miles, and that is if you are very gentle on the throttle and weigh 150lbs. I could buy an extra used NC700X for spare parts and still have enough money left over to buy gas for several years worth of riding.

when i was looking for a bike. The electrics came into play. Especially the ZERO. However, if it was just my commute it would be fine. If I wanted to take it for longer rides, then it would be a problem.
NC700x won out because you can buy gas anywhere.
Cost was also a factor, the NC was far more inexpensive compared to the electrics.

I did buy an electric bicycle (part electric and part pedal power). I got it on clearence and love it.

Ken

PHX-AZ-700X said:

I rode a DS at a Zero Ride Event last year...

They are very fun to ride, very fast acceleration, very quiet. But I would never buy one.

First, they are too quiet. They don't make any noise except for the chain drive and tire noise. If you think loud pipes save lives, an electric bike is not for you. Cagers already don't notice motorcycles, imagine now that you are on a noiseless bike in a blindspot.

Mostly, they don't make much sense economically.

Click to expand...

Let me first start off with thanking you for sharing your thoughts and options regarding the matter.

The purpose of riding these bikes is to experience them and the hype. I am simply curious and want to know more.

Let's run a scenario here for discussion purposes, regardless how ridiculous it may seem:

If you have a round trip commute of 50 miles, the quoted 120 miles range would be plenty to get you there back comfortable. Once you get home, you plug it in, which would cost about $1.50 per charge per night ($1.5/50 = 3¢ per mile). These bikes are claimed to be "Maintenance Free", they would only require tires and brake pads as a minimum. The battery pack will last well over 200,000 miles or so to reach 80% of it's original capacity.

With the 3¢ figure per mile, 200,000 X 3¢ = $6,000, Does not include the cost of all required maintenance and any repairs. If you have solar system on your property or charge it somewhere else, the cost can be effectively $0 to operate an Electric Motorcycle.

Let's now used the figures from my NC700X, MPG average of 55 and average fuel cost of $3.76/gal in the last year. We can calculate all the required figures need to find out the average fuel cost over 200,000 miles.

Fuel Used: 200,000/55 = 3,636.364 gallons

Fuel Cost: $3.76 X 3,636.364 = $13,672.73, Does not include the cost of all required maintenance and any repairs.

Putting numbers to things of help find the financial side of this all and bring prospective.

I want to keep an open mind regarding this and the technology.

Brillot2000 said:

Let me first start off with thanking you for sharing your thoughts and options regarding the matter.

The purpose of riding these bikes is to experience them and the hype. I am simply curious and want to know more.

Let's run a scenario here for discussion purposes, regardless how ridiculous it may seem:

If you have a round trip commute of 50 miles, the quoted 120 miles range would be plenty to get you there back comfortable. Once you get home, you plug it in, which would cost about $1.50 per charge per night ($1.5/50 = 3¢ per mile). These bikes are claimed to be "Maintenance Free", they would only require tires and brake pads as a minimum. The battery pack will last well over 200,000 miles or so to reach 80% of it's original capacity.

With the 3¢ figure per mile, 200,000 X 3¢ = $6,000, Does not include the cost of all required maintenance and any repairs. If you have solar system on your property or charge it somewhere else, the cost can be effectively $0 to operate an Electric Motorcycle.

Let's now used the figures from my NC700X, MPG average of 55 and average fuel cost of $3.76/gal in the last year. We can calculate all the required figures need to find out the average fuel cost over 200,000 miles.

Fuel Used: 200,000/55 = 3,636.364 gallons

Fuel Cost: $3.76 X 3,636.364 = $13,672.73, Does not include the cost of all required maintenance and any repairs.

Putting numbers to things of help find the financial side of this all and bring prospective.

I want to keep an open mind regarding this and the technology.

Click to expand...

I have been thinking of getting a zero in the future and also electric car.

is the ultimate transportation due to the "no maintenance needed" side of thing. but car and motorcycle manufacture want their money. they like make money with parts and maint at the dealer

electric vehicle can damages the maint industry badly.

electric vehicle also have less parts then a combustion engine

by the way the zero also have a storage like the NC, smaller. but is some storage, you can fit your lunch in there

People buy all-electric vehicles for their own reasons so comparing costs & performance with a normal gasoline engine doesn't enter the picture. Most car drivers would say the same things about owning an expensive motorcycle.

Brammo being bought by Victory is a positive. I'd guess that in 3-5 years, all the motorcycle manufacturers will have all-electric models. Harley is starting to get serious about building a battery facility for their electric bike and Mugen Ltd won the electric bike class at the Isle of Man this past year, placing 1st & 2nd. In the past Mugen did a lot of research for Honda so it's not much of a stretch to imagine Honda money in that project.

Everyone I've talked to who's ridden a zero loved it.

I really don't think the silence is a problem. If someone has their stereo on, windows up, the difference between a silent bike and anything from the last decade with stock pipes is going to be negligible. Not every driver can hear, they all have eyes. I'd take a big, well lit, silent bike over a loud, less visible one any day.

Brammo was purchased by Polaris industries, parent to victory. Polaris has been a partner with Brammo for a long time. Polaris has promised production of new brammos by the end of this year from their facilities. The Brammo engineers get to keep working on their electic stuff and Polaris gets to manufacture. It's a win win for them and should be a big win for consumers. Polaris has the dealer network and resources to make brammos less expensive.

Brillot2000 said:

Fuel Used: 200,000/55 = 3,636.364 gallons

Fuel Cost: $3.76 X 3,636.364 = $13,672.73, Does not include the cost of all required maintenance and any repairs.

Click to expand...

This would be a better number. $2.25 X 3,636.364 =8,181.819

So for me the cost difference just isn't worth the sacrifices. It's pretty tough to justify electric vehicles when your looking at the numbers but you buy one for totally different reasons. One day though when battery technology improves we will all be on electric somethings.

A few random thoughts:

Buying electricity at home for your vehicle circumvents the tax collection system to pay for highway maintenance. When electric vehicles become widespread, the tax collection system will change, and your electric vehicle will loose one of the cost elements currently working in its favor.

In regards to the quietness of electric motorcycles, you could put big speakers on your electric motorcycle and continuously blast out noise so your presence would be known. All vehicles could do that. The highways would be a cacophony of noise. Sounds pretty silly. Yeah, just like loud pipes.

I personally think the quietness and smoothness of the electric motorcycle are advantages as important as the operational cost savings. Still the initial cost of the vehicle is currently prohibitive.

Range anxiety and then price is what keeps me from an electric bike.

Most of my riding is to and from work, but sometimes I make side trips along the way. Most of my commute is on an interstate or state highway. I also really enjoy poker runs and the occasional ride out. Electrics don't have the range to do that comfortably. There are more than a few trips that an electric couldn't do at all.

They also take too long to charge. If I get out to the end of their range, it's hours to recharge, and I've to find a place that will let me plug in. Gas takes a few minutes and is all over the place.

The price is too high for the return. To get an electric that comes closest to my requirements is twice or more what I paid for either gas bike. My C50 got mpg in the 50s. This NCX is looking like I'll get 60+. I've two bars left on my first tank. We'll soon see. Maintenance free? I call shenanigans. All mechanical things can and will fail. We have electric motors at work. They are amazingly durable, but not magic.

Double the range and bring the price down by 25%, I'm in.

I rode the Zero S and DS last weekend, and liked them, the DS sat more like the NC700x than the S did. The range of the smallest battery would actually work for my current commuting scenerio. Their larger batteries are very expensive upgrades. What I still don't trust is their expected battery life, especially in Phoenix. Zero actually put out a statement on their site that they recommend not storing the bike in direct sunlight at over 105 deg F or the battery will suffer. Here is the exact quote from their literature: "Storing the motorcycle or its power pack in direct sunlight in ambient temperatures above 105F/41C may result in accelerated permanent decay of battery cell performance, and hence it is not recommended." Kind of hard not to do in Phoenix if the place you work for does not offer covered parking. We probably have 60 days a year over 105F. A motorcycle cover may help a little, but that is more UV protection than heat protection. Nissan had a similar issue the first couple of years with the Leaf. Phoenix was a test market for them and after a summer in the Phoenix heat the cars went from a 80-100 mile range down to 40 miles. Concidering a battery pack is going to likely be over $3000 to replace on these motorcycles, even for the base one, this is not something I want to concider at this time.

Some day (hopefully soon) the batteries will be robust enough and economical enough that the Electric Vehicles will be a better fit for me. And since my goal is to get 100,000 miles on my NC before getting my next commuter bike, they will probably be there by then (about 6-8 more years).

I love the idea of a electric motorcycle or car, the silence, the cleanliness, no fluids, clean smell, no more noisy neighborhood

Anyone been to downtown los angeles ??? Or china ,

Being able to get the dirty air out from where!most people live

670cc said:

A few random thoughts:

Buying electricity at home for your vehicle circumvents the tax collection system to pay for highway maintenance. When electric vehicles become widespread, the tax collection system will change, and your electric vehicle will loose one of the cost elements currently working in its favor.

Click to expand...

The fuel tax system is already pretty broken in the US. Fuel taxes only cover about 2/3 of federal highway costs, 1/3 of state costs, and none of local road building and maintenance costs.

More proof gas taxes don't pay for roads - Greater Greater Washington

OP's cost figures are absolutely insane. I'm not trying to insult you, OP, but lets use some reality based numbers.

No one is going to keep a motorcycle for 200,000 miles. If you rode the bike 15,000 miles per year, it would take you 13 years to test that figure. Zero quotes a 234,000 mile range to 80% battery capacity. No one has ever tested this in reality; it is based on a linear degradation of the battery life from the EPA calculations...on a battery that experiences it's life in perfect conditions. Real life is not a perfect condition.

OP quoted a 120 mile range...the stated range from Zero's website has multiple variables. Let's say you bought the Zero DS with no additional battery options. Your 9.4Kw battery is rated at 104 miles for city riding only. If your riding is 70MPH highway miles, you only get a 50 mile range. Combined, it is rated at 68 miles. Next, Zero quotes a $0.01 per mile cost. Electricity costs vary as wildly as gas prices from state to state, but I will use the Zero and Honda stats for my calculations.



Zero DS MSRP $13,345.00
NC700X MSRP $7,499.00

Maint/year: (Tires, brake pads, chain, oil, fluids, sched. maint)
Zero $400.00
NC700X $700.00

Fuel Cost/mile:
Zero $0.01
NC700X $0.07 (Est. yearly avg $3.50/gallon, 3.7gal tank, 50mpg)

15,000 mi/year:
Zero $150.00
NC700X $1,050.00

Yearly Cost:
1 year
Zero $13,895.00
NC700X $9,249.00
2 year
Zero $14,445.00
NC700X $10,999.00
3 year
Zero$14,995.00
NC700X $12,749.00
4 year
Zero $15,545.00
NC700X $14,499.00
5 year
Zero $16,095.00
NC700X $16,249.00

It will take you 5 years to break even compared to an NC700X. If you use non-California gas prices, such as the AAA National Average, which is currently $2.28 per gallon, the break even point is 7 years.

I am not anti electric vehicle. You should know that I own a Tesla Model S. It is simply amazing. I couldn't care less if it saves me money on gas...it's sexy as hell and faster off the line than nearly any other car on the road. It is supposed to get 250 miles to a charge, but I am lucky if I get 200 miles. It all depends on how liberal you are with the throttle. 200 mile range is great...I can charge it every 3 days if needed, but I charge it every night.

An electric car is very different from an electric motorcycle. You have to charge it every night...and hope you don't forget. The battery tech isn't good enough yet for such a small package. If you have the money to burn and want to save a polar bear, get two Zero DS bikes.

Want to take a trip with your motorcycle buddies up the coast? Better have a second gas-powered motorcycle...

Good info, PHX. However I would suggest using an average MPG of 64 for the NC700x, as indicated on Fuelly for model years 2012 thru 2014. That would lower the petrol bike's cost a bit and extend the break-even point out a bit further.

Granted, you need to factor labor costs into the scheduled maintenance, but DIY costs would be lower if one has the free time. For two oil changes over 15000 miles, an air filter, a valve adjustment, and replacing coolant, I might spend a total $80 for parts and fluids. All other maintenance would be common to both machines. So if your time costs nothing, the difference in annual maintenance costs could be, say, $100, in order to prorate in a battery change on the gas motorcycle. This would again extend the break-even point out further.

At some point do we need to look at residual or resale value? I can't quote a source but I thought I read electric cars take a huge hit in resale value. Perhaps buyers of used electrics are wary of battery life issues.

Even if the break-even point was 10 years, the electric motorcycle would be pretty cool. But if your trips are usually longer than the range, it's the wrong tool for the job.

670cc said:

Good info, PHX. However I would suggest using an average MPG of 64 for the NC700x, as indicated on Fuelly for model years 2012 thru 2014. That would lower the petrol bike's cost a bit and extend the break even point out a bit further.

Granted, you need to factor labor costs into the scheduled maintenance, but DIY costs would be lower if one has the free time. For two oil changes over 15000 miles, an air filter, a valve adjustment, and replacing coolant, I might spend a total $80 for parts and fluids. All other maintenance would be common to both machines. So if your time costs nothing, the difference in annual maintenance costs could be, say, $100.

Click to expand...

I realize most peoples MPG is going to be higher than 50mpg, but I wanted to calculate for the lowest figures. Same with maintenance. Most people are going to do oil/air filter themselves, some even do tires DIY, but I just had to guesstimate. I tried the calculations with multiple figures, and it really didn't matter in the long run. Only MPG really effected the break even point significantly. If I used my own MPG and maintenance data , I would break even in 9 years.

These costs compare to the manual transmission NC700X. If the buyer is comparison shopping and insists on the DCT with its higher initial cost, the break-even point will come in sooner.

PHX-AZ-700X said:

An electric car is very different from an electric motorcycle. You have to charge it every night...and hope you don't forget. The battery tech isn't good enough yet for such a small package. If you have the money to burn and want to save a polar bear, get two Zero DS bikes.

Want to take a trip with your motorcycle buddies up the coast? Better have a second gas-powered motorcycle...

Click to expand...

Or get a setup like the KTM electric dirt bike with a second battery you can swap out...Too bad the batteries are so darn expensive.