conti motion front mounted in reverse

[JimbosToys]

I put new Conti Motions on my NC 2000 miles ago. Nice tires. But during washing yesterday discovered that the front was mounted in reverse. Really POed at the shop (they also grossly misaligned my rear which I corrected)).
There is some uneven wear on the front - left side more worn than right - but not horrible.
I am taking the bike back to the dealer for resolution. Do I:
1. Leave it alone?
2. Just get him to remount (and balance) correctly?
3. Assert that running a tire backwards has permanently 'set' the tire and it should not be used, therefore install a new one at no charge?

What sayeth the group? I did a search on this and get different opinions, mostly related to water, braking, tires designed for rears mounted on the front. Tried to get to Conti for their input - no joy.
Thanks, Jim

 

[rippin209]

Defiantly not number 1. If you are a regular customer number 3. If this is a shop you go to once or twice a year number 2. Good luck

 

[L.B.S.]

I would have it remounted and just let them know politely that you are concerned about the present condition, possibly effecting the longevity and/or safety of the tire. See what they say.

If you get the overwhelming feeling of a snow job bs denial of any likelihood of that, or they scoff outright at the suggestion, then I wouldn't go back.

If they are at least apologetic and not shitty about it, I would chalk it up to a learned lesson to check your new tires next time and call it a day.

Bonus would be if you could get them to chuck in a free mounting next time or something.

For me it would be all about their attitude, when approached. I wouldn't be all confrontational and get them defensively hyped up feeling you were rubbing their nose in it, but I would feel similarly insulted if they blew me off without care, as well.

 

[Beemerphile]

Radials do take a set and should not be reversed after appreciable mileage. I'd make a strong pitch for replacement, but under no conditions would I reverse it now. If they refused to do the right thing, I would probably run the tire out as it is and shop elsewhere next time.

 

[rippin209]

Radials do take a set and should not be reversed after appreciable mileage. I'd make a strong pitch for replacement, but under no conditions would I reverse it now. If they refused to do the right thing, I would probably run the tire out as it is and shop elsewhere next time.

I don't fallow the logic, please explain. My thought is about driving in the rain, having the tire backwards sounds dangerous. At least as bad as a bald tire if not worse

 

[L.B.S.]

I don't know anything about them taking a set, but as far as water dispersion with the tread pattern, yes for sure, but of more concern to me is the tread splice angle on a backwards front tire, on the front rim.*

Tires Directional Arrows Explained By Avon Tyres at Cyril Huze Post ? Custom Motorcycle News





*On my CBR125R, it's common to mount a wider front tire for a larger size rim on the rear, but have the tire mounted backwards. The acceleration forces are not of concern, nor are the braking on the rear tire of the little bike, as far as the splice orientation goes.

 

[Old Can Ride]

I agree with L.B.S. 100%. All of us make mistakes. At most shops the setup folks are changing the tires. Good Luck!

 

[JimbosToys]

Hey guys. See what I mean? Yes, turn it around. No, do not turn it around.
I was actualy a tire design engineer at BFG back in the day when radials first penetrated the US market (late 70s). There was a rule - never reverse the rotation of a 'broken in' radial tire as they take a set. That's why you do not criss-cross during tire rotation, just front to rear to front.
But I am not a bike tire expert and I need to be sure of my facts when I go to the shop.
I will not get all huffy, and the service mgr is also the owner's son (new store 100 miles from main store). When they screwed up the rear alignment he was not a jerk, but this will be pricey. I need a new tire!

 

[Beemerphile]

I don't fallow the logic, please explain. My thought is about driving in the rain, having the tire backwards sounds dangerous. At least as bad as a bald tire if not worse

The rotation arrow has two main points of significance. The overlap of the tire carcass and the tread's efficiency at water removal. If the tire works fairly well either way, the tire might be rated for both front and rear use. In this case, the mounting direction is determined by the overlap direction and the front is run in a reverse direction from the rear. The main force in the rear is acceleration and the main force in the front is braking. If you are using a tire on the front that only has a directional arrow for rear (in other words, it was not intended for front use), the generally accepted practice is that it should be mounted in the opposite direction so you don’t aggravate the tread splice. It might hydroplane easier when run that way, but the splice overlap is deemed to be more important from a safety perspective.

It doesn't matter with a bias ply tire, but all bets are off once a radial tire has been run a significant amount in one direction. Reversing it could cause a problem larger than either the rain efficiency or the carcass overlap as the carcass tries to shift from one orientation to the other. Ideal as I said was to get the dealer to replace it. However, if they would not replace it, I think it is safer to continue to run it backwards rather than to try at this stage to correct the rotation. I absolutely would not reverse it at this point. If that was my only choice, I would remove it and throw it away. I would, however, not be alarmed to continue to run the tire as it is. It would not work as well on flooded streets, but in normal wet road conditions where you are not pumping water at the limits it should work fine. I doubt that you could detect a difference in "wet traction" apart from the reduction in the tire's ability to move large quantities of water. It is not as bad as a bald tire and it is not worse. But guess what, it loses its ability to do that anyway as the tread depth diminishes. As far as the overlap coming apart, you can usually see that coming as the tire gets "lumpy" before she blows.

 

[L.B.S.]

Hey guys. See what I mean? Yes, turn it around. No, do not turn it around.
I was actualy a tire design engineer at BFG back in the day when radials first penetrated the US market (late 70s). There was a rule - never reverse the rotation of a 'broken in' radial tire as they take a set. That's why you do not criss-cross during tire rotation, just front to rear to front.
But I am not a bike tire expert and I need to be sure of my facts when I go to the shop.
I will not get all huffy, and the service mgr is also the owner's son (new store 100 miles from main store). When they screwed up the rear alignment he was not a jerk, but this will be pricey. I need a new tire!

I never even knew about the things not supposed to be turned around after being mounted the wrong way for a while! Huh. A new learned thing.

The only front tire I've ever had accidently put on backwards in my whole life, was a Metzeler Laser bias ply, about 31 years ago...

 

[rippin209]

I never even knew about the things not supposed to be turned around after being mounted the wrong way for a while! Huh. A new learned thing.

The only front tire I've ever had accidently put on backwards in my whole life, was a Metzeler Laser bias ply, about 31 years ago...

Same here learn something new every day. I didn't know it was a problem at all to turn then around.

 

[670cc]

The main lesson to learn here, if you rely on other people to do service for you, is to check their work carefully before you leave the business. I have seen tires reversed, hardware in the wrong place or missing, important electrical connections left disconnected (such as radiator fan), parts that were claimed to be replaced but weren't, you name it.

 

[showkey]

Tires and tire rotation can be a lot like oil and filters.........

Not everyone agrees on turning tire around...........

A quote from Bridgestone..." Straight Rotation
Straight Rotation was developed in the early years of radial tires. This rotation method simply replaces the front to rear and rear to front."
Cross Rotation
"The "Cross Pattern" provides the best results and can be performed on any Front or Rear Wheel Drive vehicle equipped with 4 non- unidirectional tires. (Unidirectional tires must be rotated front to rear only.)"

Motorcycle could be considered unidirectional because of the water management just like some car tread designs.

Not to derail this thread......but in the automotive side many NOW recommend or allow cross rotation:

Tire Tech Information - Tire Rotation Instructions

Vehicle Tire Rotation Basics

Tire rotation patterns | TireBuyer.com

http://www.tiresafety.com/maint/maint_content.asp

http://www.aa1car.com/library/tire_rotation_bridgestone.pdf

 

[Beemerphile]

Not everyone agrees on turning tire around...........

Showkey, do you have any information to show whether motorcycle radials have advanced beyond the need for this? If so, I'm all wet and the O.P. should simply reverse the tire and ride on. But then everything that applies for cars does not necessarily translate to motorcycles. For example, with cars one never concerns themselves with the direction that the overlap is running.

Lee

 

[JimbosToys]

I finally found the Continental info I sought. Was in this downloaded document:

http://blobs.continental-tires.com/...73d3d9f2cd7034/technical-manual-2015-data.pdf

It says on p266
■ Directional arrows
Where a tyre has directional arrows moulded upon
it, the tyre must be fitted so that the relevant front
or rear arrow follows the direction of rotation. Road
handling and tyre wear may worsen, or damage to
the tyre can occur in extreme circumstances if these
instructions are not followed.

I think the installing dealer (BTW - I brought these tires in after he could not come CLOSE to the internet price, but I did spend >$600 on other stuff) owes me a tire. Wish me luck!

 

[L.B.S.]

Fingers crossed for ya!

 

[670cc]

I finally found the Continental info I sought. Was in this downloaded document:

http://blobs.continental-tires.com/...73d3d9f2cd7034/technical-manual-2015-data.pdf

It says on p266
■ Directional arrows
Where a tyre has directional arrows moulded upon
it, the tyre must be fitted so that the relevant front
or rear arrow follows the direction of rotation. Road
handling and tyre wear may worsen, or damage to
the tyre can occur in extreme circumstances if these
instructions are not followed.

I think the installing dealer (BTW - I brought these tires in after he could not come CLOSE to the internet price, but I did spend >$600 on other stuff) owes me a tire. Wish me luck!

Well since this dealer didn't sell you the tire, only the mounting labor, I wouldn't hold my breath expecting a free replacement tire. I think the most you could get is for them to reinstall it properly, or give you a prorated percentage off of a new tire (at their price) plus free installation. Nevertheless, it doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[showkey]

Showkey, do you have any information to show whether motorcycle radials have advanced beyond the need for this? If so, I'm all wet and the O.P. should simply reverse the tire and ride on. But then everything that applies for cars does not necessarily translate to motorcycles. For example, with cars one never concerns themselves with the direction that the overlap is running.

Lee

Since nobody really rotates motorcycle tires ( on purpose ) manufactures comments or rules might be hard to find.

Just a lot of anecdotal accounts around.........but according to Google this motorcycle tire mounting error happens a lot. There are dozens of questions and comments on ADv rider. Then there the race guys that say they regularly turn the tire around to get more life out of the tire because the track having more turns one way.

I do have to say I have turned a few tires around to counter feathering. My Translap would eat front tires because of feathering. Turnings the Distanzia around double the life and make for a smoother ride.
I would be interesting if one call the customer service of the motorcycle tire manufacture what would say ?????

Like I said it's like oil......

 

[Therapy]

One of the reasons for paying high labor rates to shops is because they then assume some liability.
Saying "Oh well, it's just the assembler kid. I guess I can accept that." is nonsense.
Which is one reason I bought manuals and tools as I grew. Too many "professionals" I had to correct after paying.
But then my work life didn't tolerate shoddy work.
I say they owe you an apology for both the front and rear mistake, AND a new, installed tire.
Why? Because if they do that you will go back. If not and you go back............well you either have no choice or you know what you are going to pay for.

 

[670cc]

One possible outcome to prepare for:

"Well, if you had let us know of our error right away, we could have corrected it, but since you rode on the tire for 2000 miles, there's nothing we can do now."

You can expect the dealer to resist the expense to their business in any way possible.