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Question Buying a 2021, on the fence about DCT?

bumblepee said:
Same here. DCT was a defining factor among other unique things like the front storage tank.

I got a new 2021 DCT just few weeks ago. I think the DCT divides people based on how they perceive the motorcycle. There are two categories probably:
Type 1. "I want to have fun, just fun, the motorocycle is a lot of fun." And like all fun activities you cannot (and should not) do it all the time. Thus, controlling exactly the way power is applied on the rear wheel is very important as it gives you the fun you want in the limited times that is pleasurable. You don't go out frequently, not in the city at least, and you are not going to stay in traffic much because shifting gears can become an annoyance and one more thing to do while engaged in traffic.
Type 2: "I want to hop on the motorcycle for a lot of things, going to play soccer, buy something from the grocery shop, commute to work in beautiful summer days." You need to consider you will be stuck in traffic (in all dumb states that do not permit lane filtering except California). You also want to be the fastest guy to start moving on a green light, which on a regular clutched bike you need some preparations for.

I value practicality and usability of a device, this is why I went with the DCT. In these 180 miles or so I have ridden, the only part I miss is the ability to press the clutch and let the bike roll until reaching a stop pint (red light, etc.). The DCT has always the back wheel engaged, and both higher modes (Standard, Sport) use a lot of engine break. I found the solution by switching to Rain mode, gives the feeling of a disengaged clutch when you release the throttle. The modes help a lot to adjust to what the ride will be about. Sometimes I switch to Sport because the road, or my schedule, needs me to be more aggressive, other times stay at Standard (default when the bike starts), and others again I stay behind other cars and prefer the Rain mode (when it's not raining, of course). So, for yourself, depends how much you need the exact control of torque/clutch in your left hand vs. how you will hate it in urban conditions. Don't forget that with DCT you free the left hand and the left foot, and the coordination you need also with the right hand when changing gears. As for gears changing in turns, I think in some occasions the bike changes gears, but is not the manual change someone would perform, it is very soft and it keeps the same traction/pull that it left from the last gear. I think they know what they have tested well enough to avoid sudden torque changes because of an automated gear shift. The part that is weird to me is how much this bike uses low revs, it quickly goes to 6th gear at 40-60mhp. Sometimes you know an uphill is coming and you will need more power, which that 6th gear cannot give at 2000 rpms, and thats when you would have lowered the gear manually, but it doesn't really matter because if you pay that much attention to gears on the DCT, you can just as well lower with a click of a button.

Hope it helps.
Click to expand...
Type 3: Simply prefers a manual transmission. Same reason my car has an MT. I'm not saying either is better or worse, they are different. I don't find shifting gears an annoyance, and actually find the car (or bike) picking the gear for me to be more annoying. Often it will shift when I don't want it to or won't shift when I do. Not saying it's wrong to shift or not at those points, just not what I wanted. I still use my bike for plenty of things like going to the shop, commuting to work, etc. In general, if the bike can be used for what I need to do, I will use it. Having a DCT would not make me use it any more than I already do, and I would personally enjoy it less.
 
TheIronWarrior said:
Type 3: Simply prefers a manual transmission. Same reason my car has an MT. I'm not saying either is better or worse, they are different. I don't find shifting gears an annoyance, and actually find the car (or bike) picking the gear for me to be more annoying. Often it will shift when I don't want it to or won't shift when I do. Not saying it's wrong to shift or not at those points, just not what I wanted. I still use my bike for plenty of things like going to the shop, commuting to work, etc. In general, if the bike can be used for what I need to do, I will use it. Having a DCT would not make me use it any more than I already do, and I would personally enjoy it less.
Click to expand...
I agree 100% with TheIronWarrior. I do love certain twist and go bikes, like CVT scooters and Zero all electric motorcycles (have four such machines in the garage) but for the NC (and Goldwing) motorcycle, I find the DCT to be annoying and much prefer and enjoy a manual transmission instead of the DCT. However, the thread originator wants a twist and go motorcycle and is interested in the NC750X DCT, so I would recommend it for them. There aren’t many choices available for automatic transmissions in motorcycles. The Honda DCT is a mature product and works as designed; it’s just not for everyone.
 
I also have manual trans and DCT trans mc's in the garage (and had in the past and thinking about adding another CVT scooter depending on what the mfgs show me for 2022...300cc would be nice). I switch back and forth from manual to DCT. So far this month I have ridden the DCT 6 days and the manual trans 5 days and will be riding the manual today. Probably the DCT tomorrow. They are both fun. Maybe because I am old, and have been riding so many years, the manual trans is not as "stimulating" as it used to be, although I still enjoy a perfectly timed and executed set of shifts in a series of curves, but for the most part, where I live the roads are curvy but not technical, so shifting isn't as necessary for enjoyment (mentally) as it was when I was years younger. The DCT is just as pleasurable FOR ME to ride as the manual trans mc. FOR ME the most important aspect of riding is clean lines and perfect apexes .... lean left, lean right, lean left, lean right.
 
670cc said:
I agree 100% with TheIronWarrior. I do love certain twist and go bikes, like CVT scooters and Zero all electric motorcycles (have four such machines in the garage) but for the NC (and Goldwing) motorcycle, I find the DCT to be annoying and much prefer and enjoy a manual transmission instead of the DCT. However, the thread originator wants a twist and go motorcycle and is interested in the NC750X DCT, so I would recommend it for them. There aren’t many choices available for automatic transmissions in motorcycles. The Honda DCT is a mature product and works as designed; it’s just not for everyone.
Click to expand...
Out of all the options for "automatic" motorcycles, I don't think you'll find anything better than a Honda DCT on the market at this time.
There is nothing wrong with preferring the "simplicity" of twist-and-go. If you find changing gears to be annoying or inconvenient, you can't go wrong with the DCT!
If you (like me) prefer the exercise of shifting, the MT version is also fantastic!

Only tangentially related, but:
The WORST car I have ever had the displeasure of driving was when my (MT) Golf Wagon in the shop and the loaner was an (AT) Cruze. The clumsiest shifts at the worst times. Even driving it in "tip-shift" mode or whatever Chev calls it was awful. My wife had an (MT) Sonic at the time and that was a great little car. Aside from being physically smaller, the Cruze and the Sonic were extremely similar, even down to having the same engine. Had the Sonic had an AT, it would have neem the same AT that the Cruze had, I believe. I can confidently say that had the Cruze had an MT, I would not have hated driving it.
Of all the automatics I have driven, I have never "liked" any of them. I have tolerated them when it was required. This is personal preference only.
Ultimately, if I needed, say, a truck or a van because of load capacity, and none were available in MT, I would be fine getting one in AT. I would not, however, choose an AT over an MT, all else being equal, at this time in my life.
 
TheIronWarrior said:
Out of all the options for "automatic" motorcycles, I don't think you'll find anything better than a Honda DCT on the market at this time.
There is nothing wrong with preferring the "simplicity" of twist-and-go. If you find changing gears to be annoying or inconvenient, you can't go wrong with the DCT!
If you (like me) prefer the exercise of shifting, the MT version is also fantastic!

Only tangentially related, but:
The WORST car I have ever had the displeasure of driving was when my (MT) Golf Wagon in the shop and the loaner was an (AT) Cruze. The clumsiest shifts at the worst times. Even driving it in "tip-shift" mode or whatever Chev calls it was awful. My wife had an (MT) Sonic at the time and that was a great little car. Aside from being physically smaller, the Cruze and the Sonic were extremely similar, even down to having the same engine. Had the Sonic had an AT, it would have neem the same AT that the Cruze had, I believe. I can confidently say that had the Cruze had an MT, I would not have hated driving it.
Of all the automatics I have driven, I have never "liked" any of them. I have tolerated them when it was required. This is personal preference only.
Ultimately, if I needed, say, a truck or a van because of load capacity, and none were available in MT, I would be fine getting one in AT. I would not, however, choose an AT over an MT, all else being equal, at this time in my life.
Click to expand...
On a different tangent, we have the direct drive electric motor, twist and go motorcycle. Transmissions as we know them in motorcycles and scooters, be they manual or automatic, exist because of the relatively narrow power band characteristics of internal combustion engines. Also, since the common ICE can’t grunt itself away from a dead stop from zero RPM, we have a clutch to disconnect the engine from the transmission, or the transmission from the final drive. OTOH, when the motorcycle uses an electric motor, the whole necessity of a transmission is gone. So while I would consider a manual transmission satisfying to operate, a CVT to be acceptable, a DCT to be annoying, since buying the Zero, I have discovered the ultimate joy: having no transmission and clutch at all. Perhaps the whole transmission debate might someday go away if we don’t even need transmissions anymore.

Sorry for drifting from the original topic, but the topic was about transmission choice.
 
670cc said:
On a different tangent, we have the electric motor direct drive, twist and go motorcycle. Transmissions as we know them in motorcycles and scooters, be they manual or automatic, exist because of the relatively narrow power band characteristics of internal combustion engines. Also, since the common ICE can’t grunt itself away from a dead stop from zero RPM, we have a clutch to disconnect the engine from the transmission, or the transmission from the final drive. OTOH, when the motorcycle uses an electric motor, the whole necessity of a transmission is gone. So while I would consider a manual transmission satisfying to operate, a CVT to be acceptable, a DCT to be annoying, since buying the Zero, I have discovered the ultimate joy: having no transmission and clutch at all. Perhaps the whole transmission debate might someday go away if we don’t even need transmissions anymore.

Sorry for drifting from the original topic, but the topic was about transmission choice.
Click to expand...
Adding to the electric motorcycle thing, I saw and heard my first Livewire yesterday.
I never thought I would say this about an electric motorcycle, but just from the sound of its motor, I want one!
It sounded like a jet turbine.
 
bigbird said:
Adding to the electric motorcycle thing, I saw and heard my first Livewire yesterday.
I never thought I would say this about an electric motorcycle, but just from the sound of its motor, I want one!
It sounded like a jet turbine.
Click to expand...
For whatever reason, Harley chose a higher RPM motor design than the Zero. That must result in the jet turbine whine. The final performance outcomes are quite similar between Harley and Zero, but the designs differ.
 
670cc said:
On a different tangent, we have the electric motor direct drive, twist and go motorcycle. Transmissions as we know them in motorcycles and scooters, be they manual or automatic, exist because of the relatively narrow power band characteristics of internal combustion engines. Also, since the common ICE can’t grunt itself away from a dead stop from zero RPM, we have a clutch to disconnect the engine from the transmission, or the transmission from the final drive. OTOH, when the motorcycle uses an electric motor, the whole necessity of a transmission is gone. So while I would consider a manual transmission satisfying to operate, a CVT to be acceptable, a DCT to be annoying, since buying the Zero, I have discovered the ultimate joy: having no transmission and clutch at all. Perhaps the whole transmission debate might someday go away if we don’t even need transmissions anymore.

Sorry for drifting from the original topic, but the topic was about transmission choice.
Click to expand...
I recently read about transmissions on EVs because even though they are not strictly required, could lead to improved performance, efficiency, etc.
I think there are a few examples of higher-end EVs with 2 or 3 speeds, and Bosch is working on an EV-specific CVT.
Remember that an electric motor does have different performance at different speeds. The question then becomes is the added complexity and cost of a transmission worth the increased performance. For the average road user, a one-speed EV does everything they need it to do, so more cost and complexity isn't worth it. Especially where EVs are a "new" technology (relatively speaking) making them as cost effective and simple as possible for now makes the most sense. Eventually though, you're going to have some people looking to squeeze the best performance* out of the motor.
And for "traditionalists" like me, I'd be much more convinced to buy an EV if it had a manual transmission ;)

*"Performance" can mean different things to different people. Some people want the most efficient machine they can get, while others are going to be happier going as fast as possible.
 
TheIronWarrior said:
I recently read about transmissions on EVs because even though they are not strictly required, could lead to improved performance, efficiency, etc.
I think there are a few examples of higher-end EVs with 2 or 3 speeds, and Bosch is working on an EV-specific CVT.
Remember that an electric motor does have different performance at different speeds. The question then becomes is the added complexity and cost of a transmission worth the increased performance. For the average road user, a one-speed EV does everything they need it to do, so more cost and complexity isn't worth it. Especially where EVs are a "new" technology (relatively speaking) making them as cost effective and simple as possible for now makes the most sense. Eventually though, you're going to have some people looking to squeeze the best performance* out of the motor.
And for "traditionalists" like me, I'd be much more convinced to buy an EV if it had a manual transmission ;)

*"Performance" can mean different things to different people. Some people want the most efficient machine they can get, while others are going to be happier going as fast as possible.
Click to expand...
Throughout much of the rev range, the one-speed Zero I have is capable of accelerating with more G-force than my old body can physically handle, so no transmission is needed for me. YMMV.
 
670cc said:
The one-speed Zero I have potentially accelerates with more G-force than my old body can physically handle, so no transmission is needed for me. YMMV.
Click to expand...
Ah, but what if I could get you 15%+ more range by adding in a second speed?

To be noted, I would imagine the smaller the vehicle, the smaller the improvement a transmission would bring. This is simply an educated guess, so I could be wrong, but I imagine the added complications of a transmission would outweigh any benefit on a bike such as the Zero for typical road use.
 
The only reason would see that there would be need for a second gear in an E-motorcycle would be an overdrive for highway use to ended the range. Highway speeds tend to eat up battery, and therefore usable range. Adding an overdrive gear that could be engaged at speeds 50+mph could potentially give them more range.

The downside would be added weight, cost and complexity, all of which could obliterate the benefit of somewhat greater range.
 
TheIronWarrior said:
Ah, but what if I could get you 15%+ more range by adding in a second speed?

To be noted, I would imagine the smaller the vehicle, the smaller the improvement a transmission would bring. This is simply an educated guess, so I could be wrong, but I imagine the added complications of a transmission would outweigh any benefit on a bike such as the Zero for typical road use.
Click to expand...
The dash reads out instantaneous energy usage in watt hours per mile. I pay some attention to it but I can't really know how the motor efficiency would respond to various final drive sprocket ratios. Mostly, the faster you go, the more energy it uses. If the efficiency of the motor is fairly flat across the RPM range, gearing choices may not make much difference.

I think you are correct though, for a small machine, the simplicity of design may bring more benefits that complicating it with a gearbox. A gearbox would waste some energy due to friction heating, and probably require maintenance, like oil and oil changes. Ugh - trying to get away from that with electric vehicles.

I apologize to all for getting off topic. I will cease discussing transmissionless vehicles in this thread.
 
I own an older 2012 NC700x DCT, I love it. I don't own a car and am coming from scootering to work. I find that the NC and CTX get better gas mileage than my 300-500 cc scooters. I know that Honda makes the Forza 750 around the world, and would prefer that style of motorcycle because of better weather protection, but I'm not Honda Powersports in North America. I learned that X-ADV won Dakar last year impressive that an Adventure Scooter won. I also like the hand brake for the rear brakes. I hear the same things on all scooters with ABS and Traction Control, who needs it. Let me tell you the more technology that they can make it safe and convenient the better. Now onto keyless igntions like on Scooters and premium motorcycles.
 
the Ferret said:
I also have manual trans and DCT trans mc's in the garage (and had in the past and thinking about adding another CVT scooter depending on what the mfgs show me for 2022...300cc would be nice). I switch back and forth from manual to DCT. So far this month I have ridden the DCT 6 days and the manual trans 5 days and will be riding the manual today. Probably the DCT tomorrow. They are both fun. Maybe because I am old, and have been riding so many years, the manual trans is not as "stimulating" as it used to be, although I still enjoy a perfectly timed and executed set of shifts in a series of curves, but for the most part, where I live the roads are curvy but not technical, so shifting isn't as necessary for enjoyment (mentally) as it was when I was years younger. The DCT is just as pleasurable FOR ME to ride as the manual trans mc. FOR ME the most important aspect of riding is clean lines and perfect apexes .... lean left, lean right, lean left, lean right.
Click to expand...
A great 300 cc scooter is the Yamaha XMAX. I owned one and loved it. Great fork and chassis. Cheers
 
About 2,000 miles on the new 750x - DCT.
Twisties (not curves) Sport Mode - Manual
Heavy / congested traffic Rain Mode
Dirt - Gravel Rain Mode - Manual
Most Other User Mode - Manual

My User Mode setup : Power 3, Engine Braking 2, Traction 2, level 4 shifting/drive

Will keep this bike. Recommend strongly whatever Mode you use get comfortable with
the up/down shifting buttons, they give you a strong avoidance maneuver option.

Compared to 2014 CTX 700 DCT (35k miles)
Slow speed parking lot stuff, CTX easier , more stable. Don't understand, only two inches different
in seat height (raised CTX one inch). Dirt - Gravel used Sport mode - Manual, controllable, just use 2nd/3rd gear.
Doing this with the 750x was not inspiring, tended to be herky/jerky, too much , too little.
 
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