Any Difference Between Models

[IdleUp]

Hello guys - you have a great forum here - I'm scheduled to pick up my new 2015 NC700 DCT tomorrow. I was reading a thread on another site and it said the newer models have a "Learn" function for the DCT to where it remembers driving habits, shifting, etc. Do you guys know that to be true.

Also, any tips on the DCT transmission are they working OK and do most of you guys have the auto or standard?

Thanks

Mike

 

[Gibsito]

Welcome from Oregon.

Here's a poll that was done recently on what year and model people here ride. I have a 2014 X (Standard). From what I've read those with DCTs love them and I don't remember reading about any problems with them other than one (which was hearsay and which might have just been user error). I know nothing about any "learn" function, but I've never ridden a DCT so what do I know?

 

[IdleUp]

Thanks for the reply!

 

[lootzyan]

... I'm scheduled to pick up my new 2015 NC700 DCT tomorrow. I was reading a thread on another site and it said the newer models have a "Learn" function for the DCT to where it remembers driving habits, shifting, etc. Do you guys know that to be true....

Hello Mike,

I guess you know that 2016 NC DCT has 3rd generation transmission with new settings and three choices in the “S” mode.
As for "learn" function - it's an "urban legend". It would be impossible to build such system based on very basic information - acceleration or deceleration ratio. And it would be disastrous if implemented. Your riding pattern is never the same and cannot be the same. Can you imagine what would happened if computer would "override" your decision, it based on "past information"? As rider you see and hear ahead and you prepare your actions accordingly. Power Control Module (PCM) never could do that. Maybe in a future with you as passenger. It can be only one rider or driver - you or computer.

 

[670cc]

Arguing about the DCT "learn" function has almost become taboo here. There are different interpretations of Honda's mention of this "learn" function. One belief is perhaps that it's nothing more than an ongoing clutch calibration routine. Others believe the thing has an artificial intelligence almost capable of reading the rider's mind. And there's any number of beliefs in between. In the end, I don't think we really know what Honda was saying when they used the word "learning", so you're free to believe whatever you want. I personally think some people read more into a marketing buzzword than what was really there. As long as you're happy with the bike, I guess it doesn't matter.

As for the popularity of the auto vs the manual tranny, a recent poll on the forum seemed to suggest that, by model year, as Honda reduced the price premium for DCT, the DCT became more popular. 2012 models charged $2000 (US) MSRP extra for DCT, whereas lately the gap is more like $600. The lower pricing and perhaps improved confidence about reliability have made the DCT more popular lately.

 

[scotseam]

Welcome to the forum IdleUp. I own a 2015 DCT model. It works great. 6000 miles without a problem. I find myself using the manual mode all the time except in heavy traffic. With over 40yrs of riding a like the control. But not having to use a clutch makes riding easier. I'm sure you will love it!

 

[dduelin]

Hello guys - you have a great forum here - I'm scheduled to pick up my new 2015 NC700 DCT tomorrow. I was reading a thread on another site and it said the newer models have a "Learn" function for the DCT to where it remembers driving habits, shifting, etc. Do you guys know that to be true.

Also, any tips on the DCT transmission are they working OK and do most of you guys have the auto or standard?

Thanks

Mike

Mike, Welcome to the forum. I'm envious of your location in Blairsville with the great riding around there. I also have a 2015 DCT and I like it a lot. Previously I owned a 2012 manual transmission model. Both are great bikes. The basic transmission operation of the 2012-2015 DCTs and 2016 DCT is the same. As mentioned the '16 has three selectable modes in S and the earlier bikes has just one S mode. The latest generation reportedly has altered clutch slip/engagement characteristics but the older one wasn't bad in this regard, at least for me.

The computer in the DCT has a limited ability to "learn" your riding style and adjust shift points accordingly. It doesn't remember or store this "memory" at all, it's just in the moment. I don't know how it does it and don't care to argue about it I just know it does so. The DCT does not shift based on engine RPM and road speed alone or else it would always shift the same gears at the same speeds. How the learning function manifests itself is that it will alter shift points based on the riding style in use at the moment. For example if you are riding aggressively in S the computer will hold gears longer and downshift sooner than a milder riding style will shift up and down. If I immediately alter my riding style from fast and aggressive and slow down to a milder pace the DCT will still hold the gear longer than necessary in S for the mild approach now in use. It takes a little time for it to "learn" I'm not asking for higher RPM gear changes any longer. After a short time at a steady or very slowly increasing speed it will upshift and begin doing so own it's own. The autoshift points become lower in the RPM band. After a hard riding session changes to mild and the DCT is holding a higher RPM than I want for that particular speed and gear I can override the computer and upshift manually. I will override the PCM and manually trigger an upshift or two and the DCT will begin shifting gears at lower rpms to adjust to the milder riding style, or I can just wait for for it to learn the current riding style.

 

[HarveyM]

Totally, it's learned all my bad habits.

Hello guys - you have a great forum here - I'm scheduled to pick up my new 2015 NC700 DCT tomorrow. I was reading a thread on another site and it said the newer models have a "Learn" function for the DCT to where it remembers driving habits, shifting, etc. Do you guys know that to be true.

Also, any tips on the DCT transmission are they working OK and do most of you guys have the auto or standard?

Thanks

Mike

 

[mike5100]

Mike, Welcome to the forum. I'm envious of your location in Blairsville with the great riding around there. I also have a 2015 DCT and I like it a lot. Previously I owned a 2012 manual transmission model. Both are great bikes. The basic transmission operation of the 2012-2015 DCTs and 2016 DCT is the same. As mentioned the '16 has three selectable modes in S and the earlier bikes has just one S mode. The latest generation reportedly has altered clutch slip/engagement characteristics but the older one wasn't bad in this regard, at least for me.

The computer in the DCT has a limited ability to "learn" your riding style and adjust shift points accordingly. It doesn't remember or store this "memory" at all, it's just in the moment. I don't know how it does it and don't care to argue about it I just know it does so. The DCT does not shift based on engine RPM and road speed alone or else it would always shift the same gears at the same speeds. How the learning function manifests itself is that it will alter shift points based on the riding style in use at the moment. For example if you are riding aggressively in S the computer will hold gears longer and downshift sooner than a milder riding style will shift up and down. If I immediately alter my riding style from fast and aggressive and slow down to a milder pace the DCT will still hold the gear longer than necessary in S for the mild approach now in use. It takes a little time for it to "learn" I'm not asking for higher RPM gear changes any longer. After a short time at a steady or very slowly increasing speed it will upshift and begin doing so own it's own. The autoshift points become lower in the RPM band. After a hard riding session changes to mild and the DCT is holding a higher RPM than I want for that particular speed and gear I can override the computer and upshift manually. I will override the PCM and manually trigger an upshift or two and the DCT will begin shifting gears at lower rpms to adjust to the milder riding style, or I can just wait for for it to learn the current riding style.

I think I agree with DD here. It might work out whether you have been riding more aggressively for the past 10 minutes and move the change points more towards the S mode. From what I have managed to find it looks like it's only D-mode that does this learning and the learning system can't move it very far - it doesn't move the change points to where even Smode 1 would choose. Honda have a habit of releasing research info about what they plan to do with technology but once they have launched it they completely shut up shop in terms of what they have actually implemented. I don't understand why.
Mike

 

[lootzyan]

...The computer in the DCT has a limited ability to "learn" your riding style and adjust shift points accordingly. It doesn't remember or store this "memory" at all, it's just in the moment. I don't know how it does it and don't care to argue about it I just know it does so. The DCT does not shift based on engine RPM and road speed alone or else it would always shift the same gears at the same speeds. How the learning function manifests itself is that it will alter shift points based on the riding style in use at the moment. For example if you are riding aggressively in S the computer will hold gears longer and downshift sooner than a milder riding style will shift up and down. If I immediately alter my riding style from fast and aggressive and slow down to a milder pace the DCT will still hold the gear longer than necessary in S for the mild approach now in use. It takes a little time for it to "learn" I'm not asking for higher RPM gear changes any longer. After a short time at a steady or very slowly increasing speed it will upshift and begin doing so own it's own. The autoshift points become lower in the RPM band. After a hard riding session changes to mild and the DCT is holding a higher RPM than I want for that particular speed and gear I can override the computer and upshift manually. I will override the PCM and manually trigger an upshift or two and the DCT will begin shifting gears at lower rpms to adjust to the milder riding style, or I can just wait for for it to learn the current riding style....

What you described here is commonly observed and has nothing to do with "ability to learn" or "to acquire knowledge", which always requires using some kind of memory (brain neurons or semiconductors).
What's happening is that, based on acquired information, PCM executes program's instructions stored in internal memory. By analyzing DCT system diagram, base information must be from speed sensor (VS), throttle position sensor (TP) and time, from internal clock. From those PCM can generate predictable acceleration or deceleration curve (or ratio) which is executed by specific programming algorithm. Almost any programming execution is based on simple conditional statements if...then...else and variations, but executed functions can be quite complicated. Everything is already coded and stored in memory. This DCT doesn't require additional "learning" except when Clutch Initialize Learning Procedure is advised.

 

[dduelin]

What you described here ............snipped...............This DCT doesn't require additional "learning" except when Clutch Initialize Learning Procedure is advised.

Honda obviously has gotten it wrong in the technical details of the 700 DCT. Read the last paragraph of this page from Honda's technical details released 5 years ago:

Honda Develops a Powerful, Fuel-efficient 700cc Engine for Midsize Motorcycle
－Concurrently Develops a Lightweight, Compact Second-generation Dual Clutch Transmission－

TOKYO, Japan, September 26, 2011 - Honda Motor Co., Ltd. has announced the development of a new motorcycle engine with powerful torque in the low- to mid-speed range and top class, fuel-efficient environment performance, along with a second-generation Dual Clutch Transmission. This new engine is a liquid-cooled, 700cc, 4-stroke, in-line, 2-cylinder engine that fits into the mid-class range (displacement between 500 and 750cc) popular in Europe. Fuel economy exceeds 27km/L,*1 best in the mid-class range, and achieves an approximate 40%*2 improvement over other sports models in its class.

Newly developed 700cc engine (6-speed transmission)zoom
Newly developed 700cc engine
(6-speed transmission)

Newly developed 700cc engine (second-generation Dual Clutch Transmission)zoom
Newly developed 700cc engine
(Second-generation Dual Clutch Transmission)

INTEGRA,vehicle equipped with new engine to be unveiled at EICMA 2011 (equipped with options)zoom
INTEGRA,vehicle equipped with new engine to be unveiled at EICMA 2011 (equipped with options)

This new engine can be coupled with a newly developed lightweight, compact second-generation Dual Clutch Transmission, featuring a smooth, direct feel and excellent transmission efficiency, in addition to a 6-speed manual transmission.

This new engine will be mounted on three models based on different concepts, which are slated for exhibition at EICMA2011(69th International Motorcycle Exhibition) to be held in November in Milan, Italy.

Honda developed this new motorcycle engine in order to realize a set of motorcycles based on its new concept of offering outstanding fuel efficiency in the mid-class while delivering powerful, throbbing torque in the normal range for touring and urban riding.

Development was performed to meet these requirements:

An engine that is easy to handle with plentiful torque in the range normally used, and which also delivers a pleasant, throbbing feel during sporty rides
Top-class, fuel-efficient environmental performance best suited for the next-generation mid-class engine
A lightweight, compact design that allows more freedom in the body layout and provides highly convenient space

Honda determined the engine layout after examining a variety of engine types from numerous perspectives and decided on an in-line, 700cc, 2-cylinder engine with a 62º forward lean (cylinder assembly angle). To meet a wide variety of uses, two transmissions can be coupled with this engine: the second generation of Honda's innovative Dual Clutch Transmission, and a 6-speed manual transmission.

*1
WMTC mode (EU model, Honda calculations)
*2
Honda calculations

= Main Features of the New Engine =
•Higher combustion efficiency and lower friction

A wide variety of low friction technologies that aid better fuel economy are incorporated: To improve fuel efficiency through better-controlled combustion while realizing a powerful ride in the low- to mid-rpm ranges, the bore-stroke ratio is set at 73×80mm. An ideal combustion chamber shape and optimum valve timing also contribute to achieve stable combustion. Resin coating is applied to the pistons, and lightweight aluminum material is employed for the first time in a motorcycle in the friction-reducing roller rocker arm.

•Uneven-interval firing and uniaxial primary balancer

Adoption of uneven-interval firing with a 270° phase crank and uniaxial primary balancer help realize an engine with a pleasant throbbing feel that also reduces vibration.

•Branch intake port inside the cylinder head, valve timing

The layout of a branch intake port inside the cylinder head was chosen to have only one intake channel for two cylinders. This design creates deliberate interference between the two cylinders' intake processes to achieve precisely calculated changes to combustion timing.
In addition, to change the valve timing between the two in-line cylinders with one camshaft, the specifications provide for a cam with two timing routines for the intake valve. Through these measures, subtle combustion changes can be generated to give the engine a delightful, pulsating feel.

•Exhaust emission purification system

To maximize the efficiency of exhaust emission purification so that the catalyzer, a three-way catalyst, can be started promptly after the engine starts, the catalyzer has been placed directly beneath the exhaust ports. This design lets the combustion gas pass through the catalyst while the gas is still hot. In addition, a combination of measures, including the adoption of an electronically-controlled fuel injection system (PGM-FI),*3 allows the engine to achieve an emission level approximately half the European emission standards (Euro 3).*4 The resulting environmental performance is ranked among the top in the world without compromising powerful, smooth output.

*3
PGM-FI (Programmed Fuel Injection System) is a Honda registered trademark
*4
Honda calculations

•Second-generation Dual Clutch Transmission

The Dual Clutch Transmission, developed for the first time by Honda for motorcycles and installed on the VFR1200F, is now lighter and more compact through a simplified hydraulic circuit and other design enhancements. A learning function has been added to each selected running mode to detect a variety of riding environments from city streets to mountain passes and automatically performs the most suitable shift control. Although it is an automatic transmission, the Dual Clutch Transmission delivers fuel economy on a par with manual transmissions as a result of its excellent transmission efficiency.

Also:

Honda Worldwide | Dual Clutch Transmission | Second Generation

 

[lootzyan]

Honda obviously has gotten it wrong in the technical details of the 700 DCT. Read the last paragraph of this page from Honda's technical details released 5 years ago:..

... A learning function has been added to each selected running mode to detect a variety of riding environments from city streets to mountain passes and automatically performs the most suitable shift control...

Yes, I remember this. It was a time I wanted to believe that's a truth. After while, when getting familiar with Service Manual, I realized that with so few external sensors it's impossible.

 

[L.B.S.]

Does the DCT have a learning function? Honda has explicitly written that is does. Therefore, yes, I say it does, based on Honda's information, versus flat out statements that say otherwise.

Now the big mystery, is does it really work as advertised? This begins the trip down the rabbit hole of subjective rather than objective interpretation. That is a whole 'nother hornet's nest of argument that may never be settled to everyone's satisfation.

There is nothing wrong with that either really, as long as people don't get all bent out of shape and become irrationally adamant about their take, and start with rude snipes at anyone who doesn't agree.

I would hope others sit back and recognise how their posts are perceived when simply debating an issue for fun, right?

 

[IdleUp]

Hello Mike,

I guess you know that 2016 NC DCT has 3rd generation transmission with new settings and three choices in the “S” mode.
As for "learn" function - it's an "urban legend". It would be impossible to build such system based on very basic information - acceleration or deceleration ratio. And it would be disastrous if implemented. Your riding pattern is never the same and cannot be the same. Can you imagine what would happened if computer would "override" your decision, it based on "past information"? As rider you see and hear ahead and you prepare your actions accordingly. Power Control Module (PCM) never could do that. Maybe in a future with you as passenger. It can be only one rider or driver - you or computer.

Lootzyan,

I drove the one I'm thinking of getting today and really liked the quiet operation and the transmission is light years ahead of my new Spyder F3T auto trans. I thought i read something to the effect that the system just learns how aggressive you are on the throttle then changes the shift patterns slightly .

By the way How would you select the other sport modes by just selecting Sport again?

Thanks

Mike

 

[CRStep]

I don't know about learning, but I am impressed with programming of the DCT. I recently discovered that on the highway, if I need to pass a truck and open the throttle wide, the DCT automatically downshifts to give more acceleration (which I would normally have done manually). I ride mostly in S mode, and I do find that when I have ridden more aggressively, it sometimes holds gears much longer than I expect. I thought there was something wrong with mine at first. It's very interesting.

 

[lootzyan]

...By the way How would you select the other sport modes by just selecting Sport again?

If you asking about 2015 NCDCT, it has "only" 3 modes - D, S and MT (drive, sport and manual shift).
This diagram may help.

View attachment 30949

As of 2016 NCDCT I couldn't find any information how to switch between different S modes.

 

[IdleUp]

Ok I mis-understood you i thought you said it had 3 "Sport" modes

 

[lootzyan]

Yes, 2016 NC DCT supposedly should have 3 S modes - D, S, S2, S3, MT

 

[sumo]

...By the way How would you select the other sport modes by just selecting Sport again?

I mostly run in D mode. yes S mode is more aggressive but mostly I find in S mode that I'm just going along in 5th gear when I would be in 6th if I had left it in D.

To answer your question, you must let off the throttle to go between sport modes 1 2 and 3. I'm still not sure if 1 is supposed to be more aggressive than 3 or vise versa, it's all kinda gimmicky.

Don't get me wrong, I love the DCT but I simply use D mode. On occasion I'll hit the auto/manual trigger, paddle down, do what needs to be done then hit the auto/manual trigger again and let the computer put me back in sixth.

What I don't like about manual mode is that you can forget you are in it, stop at an intersection and when you take off it just stays in first, more than once I've bogged out at the red line governor because of this.

 

[dduelin]

The different S modes are chosen by repeatedly pressing the N/D switch. D, S1, S2, S3, then D again, S1, and so on.