Failed Valve adjustment need help.

So I decided to attempt my own valve check. I did everything according the manual as far as I can tell. I started on the right cylinder as I'm facing the bike, adjust all top valves with a .017 feeler and all bottom valves with a .028 feeler. This was with properly aligning the flywheel each time. Put it back together and the valves are very loud and tappy, much more than normal now. Not sure what I messed up.

is this your first time doing valves? The resistance to the feeler gauge I find is the hardest to judge
I was taught you want the slightest of resistance as you slide it out. if it just falls through then the gap is too big for the feeler.

easy way to know you have the right side of the camshaft on the rollers, is by moving the rocker arm. Does it move? If so you are most likely at or near the valve fully closed position.

They say tappy valves are happy valves. But if this seems different to you, then I would get in their and double check your work. Luckily doing the valves on this machine is as about the easiest you can get when dealing with a 2 wheeled vehicle.

Takes me 1.5 hrs to remove plastic on my PCX, and 5 minutes to adjust the valves, then 1.5 hrs to put it all back together.

You just got the valves a little bit loose. Just need to go back in and redo. I have to use 45 degree blades to get it right myself on the NC700x.

Thank you for the reply, but I found the issue. When I was reading the service manual I didn't spot the mm by the first set of numbers, so I selected the in counterparts. In short, I used feelers that were about twice the size needed. When I was doing it, I kept thinking man are these really out of adjustment. That should have been my first clue. Now its all back together, lol well only took me a day bah...

dramd said:

Thank you for the reply, but I found the issue. When I was reading the service manual I didn't spot the mm by the first set of numbers, so I selected the in counterparts. In short, I used feelers that were about twice the size needed. When I was doing it, I kept thinking man are these really out of adjustment. That should have been my first clue. Now its all back together, lol well only took me a day bah...

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I suspect you're not alone in having ever done that...

glad you found the problem. Normally I noticed that everyones valves were very very close to spot on. All were within specs.

Ken

Glad you found the issue. I have caught myself doing the same thing on shim under bucket bikes that require math equations to find the right shim. I use standard measurements and metric shims... Equations come out wacky. Good for you doing your own service and figuring out your own issues. Now you'll likely never need your local dealer


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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31046602/NC700 Service Manual A001 page 100.pdf

from here-

Honda NC700 Service Workshop Owners Manual NC700S NC700SA NC700SD NC700X NC700XA | eBay


but once again- i would really appreciate step by step DIY example of valve adjustment for this bike. in details,with pictures of every step. like it was in the sample of the book. Thank you!

To add, set it more towards the tight end of the spec but not too tight!

dramd said:

So I decided to attempt my own valve check. I did everything according the manual as far as I can tell. I started on the right cylinder as I'm facing the bike, adjust all top valves with a .017 feeler and all bottom valves with a .028 feeler. This was with properly aligning the flywheel each time. Put it back together and the valves are very loud and tappy, much more than normal now. Not sure what I messed up.

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It maybe a typo they way you reported your valve adjustment specs:
But if you used .017 and .028 inches they are way way way too loose........and thats why they a loud......

Correct Spec is .17 and .28 mm. Or .007 and .011 inches

If you used the correct size feeler gauge and they are still too loud the technique used in dragging the gauge would be suspect # 2 ............that why they call them "feeler" gauges it take the correct feel to get it right.

Well...I wanted to give an update since everyone was nice to post. I have it all back together again, and after starting it up, it once again purrs like a kitten. I used the correct feeler this time, and error a little more to a tight feeler drag than a lose one. Only took e me about an hour on the second try, which gives me hope I will be able to do most of the maintenance myself on this bike. Since this motor is based on a car engine, or we to expect 100k life cycle instead of the 50k that follows a typical motorcycle engine? I even switched a the snytheic Honda Oil this go around, hoping to squeeze the most life out of this baby I can.

I expect this motor to last well over 200k miles, and 500k _may_ be doable. I'm not sure whether the tranny will last that long or not.
Honda's SuperSport (600cc 'race') motors will easily last 100k miles without major engine work, so a basically-same-size engine putting out less than half the hp ought to last a looooooooooong time.

dramd said:

...Since this motor is based on a car engine...

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One more time This engine and the fit engine share only the bore and stroke for similarities. The "half a Fit engine" was a joke made by a Honda engineer at a press conference and was repeated as a fact.

DanH said:

One more time This engine and the fit engine share only the bore and stroke for similarities. The "half a Fit engine" was a joke made by a Honda engineer at a press conference and was repeated as a fact.

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We may as well say it was based on a Baldwin steam locomotive, since they both use pistons.

Things I would do if I had a time machine:

1. Smother baby Hitler in his crib
2. Shoot the guy who wrote Twelve Days of Christmas
3. Tackle that engineer and jam a rag in his mouth before he made the Fit comment


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motorboy said:

Your right one last time, it is NOT half A Honda FIT-- it is half a Honda JAZZ and it was not a joke it was the first collaboration between Honda M/C and Honda Auto, don't believe it go to Honda Japan corporate site translate it read it..

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No need to translate, the corporate site is also in English.

Honda Worldwide | Global 700cc Engine for Next-Generation | Introduction

No mention of the Jazz or Fit though but plenty of references to adopting automotive technology (crank design borrows from V6 auto engines, some other auto technology mentioned.

The same site has a Honda Fit/Jazz site.

Honda Worldwide | Global 700cc Engine for Next-Generation | Introduction

They use the same drive train from what I understood - in fact I think they're one and the same model using different names in different regions...

motorboy said:

Your right one last time, it is NOT half A Honda FIT-- it is half a Honda JAZZ and it was not a joke it was the first collaboration between Honda M/C and Honda Auto, don't believe it go to Honda Japan corporate site translate it read it..

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I can't read Japanese, but if you'll post a link to what you read I'll run it on Google translate.

dog said:

I can't read Japanese, but if you'll post a link to what you read I'll run it on Google translate.

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This is my only knowledge of a specific and first mention of "half a Jazz engine" (Ash on Bikes Interview.)


-Project leader Soya Uchida laughed: “I got a hacksaw and cut a Jazz engine in half, but it really didn’t run very well, so we had to put some more work into the NC700X.”

If there's a more in depth interview with explicit references, or other sources stating it undeniably, I haven't seen it, but would enjoy reading them if they were out there.


Different people can read into this what they want, and come up with their own interpretation. Personally, I don't take it as a literal thing. Sure, there are lots of similarities and shared ideas, tech and so on, but of course there is, because that's what they wanted to do in the first place.

Most people stuck on the "It's a half a Jazz engine" carousel buzz phrase, conveniently neglect to mention (or know of) so many of the things that *aren't* similar between the car and bike engine designs.

L.B.S. said:

This is my only knowledge of a specific and first mention of "half a Jazz engine" (Ash on Bikes Interview.)


-Project leader Soya Uchida laughed: “I got a hacksaw and cut a Jazz engine in half, but it really didn’t run very well, so we had to put some more work into the NC700X.”

If there's a more in depth interview with explicit references, or other sources stating it undeniably, I haven't seen it, but would enjoy reading them if they were out there.


Different people can read into this what they want, and come up with their own interpretation. Personally, I don't take it as a literal thing. Sure, there are lots of similarities and shared ideas, tech and so on, but of course there is, because that's what they wanted to do in the first place.

Most people stuck on the "It's a half a Jazz engine" carousel buzz phrase, conveniently neglect to mention (or know of) so many of the things that *aren't* similar between the car and bike engine designs.

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From Honda's Web site (page 2 references the Fit engine): Honda Worldwide | Environment | Face

An excerpt:

　One day, Negoro fixated on something one of his colleagues said at a pub.
　"Split the Fit's engine in half and it becomes a straight two-cylinder 670 cc engine. Just use that."
　Such an engine, of course, would not be functional in a motorcycle without some modification. The colleague who said it was joking, but Negoro decided to try it out.
　"The engines in compact cars, which are under particularly intense competition in the area of fuel economy, are exactly the same size as engines in large motorcycles," said Negoro. "Half of the Fit's engine would be the perfect size for the mid-class motorcycle we were developing. And the Fit is one of the most fuel-efficient compact cars out there. So we decided, let's use the Fit's engine as a model for integrating fuel-economy know-how from Honda automobiles. This was an interesting challenge from an engineering perspective."

　Compared to all the large motorcycles Negoro had developed before, which had specifications for reaching maximum efficiency at speeds over 10,000 rpm, with the new model, Negoro had to pursue the greatest possible efficiency in the low speed range from idle to 6,000 rpm. To do so, he set about building engine prototypes that borrowed engine technologies from the Fit.
　An idea that started out as a joke set the stage for a straight two-cylinder 670 cc engine—the same as half of the Fit's engine. It was an engine one would only find at Honda, one that blended automobile with motorcycle technologies.


Greg

670cc said:

From Honda's Web site (page 2 references the Fit engine): Honda Worldwide | Environment | Face

An excerpt:

　One day, Negoro fixated on something one of his colleagues said at a pub.

　"Split the Fit's engine in half and it becomes a straight two-cylinder 670 cc engine. Just use that."
　Such an engine, of course, would not be functional in a motorcycle without some modification. The colleague who said it was joking, but Negoro decided to try it out.

　"The engines in compact cars, which are under particularly intense competition in the area of fuel economy, are exactly the same size as engines in large motorcycles," said Negoro. "Half of the Fit's engine would be the perfect size for the mid-class motorcycle we were developing. And the Fit is one of the most fuel-efficient compact cars out there. So we decided, let's use the Fit's engine as a model for integrating fuel-economy know-how from Honda automobiles. This was an interesting challenge from an engineering perspective."

　Compared to all the large motorcycles Negoro had developed before, which had specifications for reaching maximum efficiency at speeds over 10,000 rpm, with the new model, Negoro had to pursue the greatest possible efficiency in the low speed range from idle to 6,000 rpm. To do so, he set about building engine prototypes that borrowed engine technologies from the Fit.　An idea that started out as a joke set the stage for a straight two-cylinder 670 cc engine—the same as half of the Fit's engine. It was an engine one would only find at Honda, one that blended automobile with motorcycle technologies.


Greg

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Thanks for that link, it was a super enjoyable read!

I'm not saying you are saying this of course, but that new (for me) knowledge reaffirms my take on it that it's designed "like" a half a Fit engine, and not "is" half a Fit engine, tweaked to make work.

Maybe I'm veering off into semantics for some people, but figuratively verus literally, that's entirely my belief.

L.B.S. said:

Thanks for that link, it was a super enjoyable read!

I'm not saying you are saying this of course, but that new (for me) knowledge reaffirms my take on it that it's designed "like" a half a Fit engine, and not "is" half a Fit engine, tweaked to make work.

Maybe I'm veering off into semantics for some people, but figuratively verus literally, that's entirely my belief.

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I'm in agreement with you, L.B.S. The line you highlighted is key.

The only exact likeness that I know of between the NC700 and the Fit/Jazz is the cylinder bore dimension. The stroke, the valve train, etc are not the same between the two engines, AFAIK.

The point is, the design philosophy of the NC engine comes from the car engine, but saying it is "half a Fit engine" is speaking metaphorically.

Greg
79 MPG Club