Gigs
Active Member
I just checked K&N's website and they have a replacement air filter for the NCX. Does anyone have one? I've heard Hondas are very finicky with non-honda filters.
K&N air filter.
- Thread starter Gigs
- Start date
Expect some spirited "discussion" about the effectiveness of the K&N air filter. As for myself, I have strong opinions on the subject which I refuse to disclose.
Gigs
Active Member
You can't say stuff like that and leave a cliff hanger. In a nutshell what is your opinion. Would you buy one given the price were about the same as stock? (It's not, but it were)
Back in the late 90's, whilst working for a car company, I sponsored some independent engineering tests comparing genuine and non-genuine parts. For brake pads the results were astonishing - all the parts tested worked reasonably well on a one stop test. But when we simulated 2 repeated emergency stops from 120 kph (something that can happen easily in heavy traffic over here) the results were very different. Some performed about as well as OE but some had stopping distances that were nearly doubled.
For air filters we couldn't measure any significant difference in engine performance or fuel economy across any of the filters tested. We weren't able to test for impact on engine longevity unfortunately, we'd have had to run the engines for so long the cost would have been prohibitive. It's unlikely that a K+N will ever filter as thoroughly as the OE filter so you are probably taking a risk on shortening engine life - but by how much is anybody's guess.
As with all these things you pays your money and you makes your choice.
I will now stand back for the rest of the discussion on the pros and cons.
For air filters we couldn't measure any significant difference in engine performance or fuel economy across any of the filters tested. We weren't able to test for impact on engine longevity unfortunately, we'd have had to run the engines for so long the cost would have been prohibitive. It's unlikely that a K+N will ever filter as thoroughly as the OE filter so you are probably taking a risk on shortening engine life - but by how much is anybody's guess.
As with all these things you pays your money and you makes your choice.
I will now stand back for the rest of the discussion on the pros and cons.
happy
Site Supporter
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2012
- Messages
- 3,344
- Reaction score
- 9
- Points
- 38
- Location
- Switzerland
I have read much about K&N filters in the same light as Lee.
If you want great performance etc, then remove your original filter and fit nothing in its place (like you have a K&N filter).
This filter and many companies like it, have it good in the racing circuits.
I believe it is a go-thru see-thru filter.
I am unsure how long the engine will take before it breaks down without a good air filter.
Anyway, this is a "small" cc bike (aka quite cheap) . So if it breaks, just buy a new one.
If you want great performance etc, then remove your original filter and fit nothing in its place (like you have a K&N filter).
This filter and many companies like it, have it good in the racing circuits.
I believe it is a go-thru see-thru filter.
I am unsure how long the engine will take before it breaks down without a good air filter.
Anyway, this is a "small" cc bike (aka quite cheap) . So if it breaks, just buy a new one.
filterfool
New Member
Air Filters
I have had K&N's on 2 Ducatis including my current 2005 S2R800 and my 1998 Honda VFR800. While not a high mileage rider (approximately 5k per year total on both bikes) I have never had a problem.
I clean and re-oil my filter yearly. I like that I do not have to run out and buy a new filter each year and that I am not filling up the land fill w/ trashed paper filters.
It is true that racing engines only go one race before a rebuild. Perhaps the high mileage riders here have had a different experience than me and I am open to hearing their opinions, hopefully including actual incidents.
I can be swayed by the facts and I don't think this should turn into an "oil" discussion.
Cheers
I have had K&N's on 2 Ducatis including my current 2005 S2R800 and my 1998 Honda VFR800. While not a high mileage rider (approximately 5k per year total on both bikes) I have never had a problem.
I clean and re-oil my filter yearly. I like that I do not have to run out and buy a new filter each year and that I am not filling up the land fill w/ trashed paper filters.
It is true that racing engines only go one race before a rebuild. Perhaps the high mileage riders here have had a different experience than me and I am open to hearing their opinions, hopefully including actual incidents.
I can be swayed by the facts and I don't think this should turn into an "oil" discussion.
Cheers
Gigs
Active Member
So the general consensus is stick with stock, save money and keep enjoying my commute. That's right I ride to and from work 5 days a week almost 70 miles a day and then my bike spends the entire weekend in the garage. How backwards is that?
(Putting on my prophet's robe...): There will emerge a bi-modal consensus.
One mode will overstate the downsides of the stock set-up with tales of "filling up landfills" and "spending a fortune" on stock elements. They will have no data, but will provide sworn testimony that they or someone they know and trust has run a half million miles with no trouble (which is kind of like saying that cigarettes are not harmful because they have been smoking for 30 years and are perfectly healthy). They will also find a Baja racer who uses a K&N to run wide open through sand dunes.
The other mode will overstate the downsides of the K&N talking about "rocks and marbles going through it" "seeing through it" or "throwing a mad cat through it" and will eventually bring data of silt and silica buildup in used oil analysis that indicates dirt has been ingested. But they will have no data that the little bit of silt and silica actually hurts anything - only that it wasn't meant to be there and that the filter was meant to keep it out.
So, it can be shown with creditable data that the K&N does not filter quite as well as the stock paper element, but it cannot be shown whether it makes any practical difference in the life of the motor. I imagine that you can run a stock paper element or a properly fitted and serviced K&N for the life of the NC700 motor with equal impunity. In fact, I bet a coffee filter tie-wrapped over the air inlet would work too.
EPILOGUE: In my working life before I became retired and useless, I was an engineer in the pharmaceutical industry. We built and maintained class-rated cleanrooms for pharmaceutical production that were quite rigorously validated for performance. We did not use K&N oiled fabric filters - we used pleated paper HEPA filters. And the only source of dirty air infiltration I ever saw was from improper gasket sealing around the edges of the filters. The one K&N that I owned on a BMW did not fit as well around the gasketed edges as the stock paper elements did. Because it didn't seal well, I greased the gaskets in order to prevent dirty air infiltration. Finally I threw it away (immediately filling up the local landfill) and went back to OEM filters. I cannot say that a K&N filter (properly serviced and installed without edge leaks) will not adequately protect the engine. I am pretty sure that it will be fine and your engine will live long enough to die of something else. However, there is enough pharmaceutical engineer and motorhead in me that I will continue to use the OEM style filters.
Your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited or taxed. No cash value. Do not use if you are nursing or pregnant or may become pregnant.
Last edited:
DanWill
New Member
I have a k&n on just about everything I own, my truck has 135000 miles and has had the k&n since about ten thousand(same filter) and has been cleaned and reoiled several times. I have lived on a dirt road for the last three years and the intake tube behind my filter is clean, no dust, no dirt, none in the cracks or crevices. Sorry, no baja stories... Believe what you want but they work and the engine breathes better. And since an engine is only a large air pump, that makes a difference. K&N for me.
Last edited:
Gigs
Active Member
I'm a nuclear power plant operator both for the navy and now commercial with experience in HEPA filters to prevent the addition of particles into the reactor compartment and thus less activated stuff ( that's all I can say about that). They weren't oiled and were some sort of cotton or paper and had a very tight fit. When there was a large differential pressure we changed them out. Sounds like a stock filter to me. Thanks Beemer, for helping me remember that stuff we learn at work is useful outside work. Moral of the story, honda engineered it let them filter it unless you need a sticker on your bike.
Also, Beemer you are quite the prophet well done.
Also, Beemer you are quite the prophet well done.
xtpete
Site Supporter
Gigs
Active Member
Well that is a pretty awesome test and also ends this conversation. Stock filters for life, a long life.
I remain a prophet. (1) The test showed the importance of gasket seal. (2) They came with lots of data that says that the K&N does not filter as well (99.5 for the average paper filter vs. 96.8% for the K&N). But, (3) they did not prove (or attempt to prove) that the difference makes a difference in the life of the motor. The percentage efficiencies (99% vs. 96%) are about what I remember from prior tests, and that difference is very significant, but it does not show that the engine is not adequately protected or that it will not last as long with the inferior filter. It may be that 2.5 micron contaminants can blow through the engine all day without harming it. The K&N is much more efficient that the oiled foam filters that previously "protected" motorcycle engines (including dirt bikes) for many years.
Interestingly, the A/C Delco filter with an efficiency of 99.93% barely missed the HEPA filter required efficiency of 99.97%. However, their contaminant stream was down to only 2.5 microns vs. the HEPA minimum of 0.30 microns so the numbers are not comparable. Still, the AC filter is kicking butt and the test shows that there may be a difference brand-to-brand. In order to show this conclusively, they would have had to re-run multiple sets of tests and averaged the results for each filter brand (which would have been a very expensive set of tests).
HERE'S THE RUB: If you ran a similar set of tests between the prize-winning AC Delco and a certified HEPA filter, the efficiencies (at 0.3 microns) would probably run about 99.97% to 96~% - about like the spread between the AC Delco and the K&N. The HEPA would kick the Delco's butt all the way around the laboratory in a similar manner. Would that test prove that the Delco did not adequately protect the engine? No, it would not. You'd have to first know what the filtration requirements were to protect the engine. We do not know that. We only know the requirements for pharmaceutical manufacturing suites and radiation containment. So, this test does not negate the experience that many K&N users have that the filter does the job.
Ends the conversation?
tweak89
New Member
I think it's common knowledge that hi-flow filters, like the K&N, are not used for their filtering ability. They are called PERFORMANCE filters because they are made to INCREASE air flow and (depending on what else you have done) HP. The test being bandied about bears this out.
I've used them in certain cars/motorcycles over the years depending on what I was trying to achieve.
I think a high flow filter would essentially be useless in the NC as the engine was designed for maximum efficiency rather than power. If the NC had a high revving inline 4 that had untapped HP potential, that would be a different story.
I've been a mechanical designer for 20+ years, but that doesn't make my OPINION a fact. Now, if you can say "I was an engineer that worked for Ford/Honda/BMW engine development for 20 years"...than maybe your work experience is relevant to your OPINION.
I've used them in certain cars/motorcycles over the years depending on what I was trying to achieve.
I think a high flow filter would essentially be useless in the NC as the engine was designed for maximum efficiency rather than power. If the NC had a high revving inline 4 that had untapped HP potential, that would be a different story.
I've been a mechanical designer for 20+ years, but that doesn't make my OPINION a fact. Now, if you can say "I was an engineer that worked for Ford/Honda/BMW engine development for 20 years"...than maybe your work experience is relevant to your OPINION.
Last edited:
Gigs
Active Member
Filtration and fluid flow are the same no matter where you go. That makes my education and training relevant, I am also going to use others opinions based on their experiences (including yours, as I use my bike for commuting and not racing) to not buy this filter and hope Honda knows what they are doing.
DanWill
New Member
Honda knows exactly what they are doing! Going with the lowest bidder that meets their criteria. Just like every other company. Its all about the buck.
goodrick
Site Supporter
My logic is this: If there was a chance for better MPG or HP coming out of the engine, don't you think Honda would be using (or even selling as an option) an oil based filter? It's one thing to say it's about the buck (ie the purchase price). But Honda also sells replacement filters. Keep in mind that they have to warranty their engines. If they only sell paper filters, I'm trusting there is a good reason.
If you are talking only about performance, which in most cases means you are sacrificing longevity for performance, that's a different story. But I didn't buy my NC for its performance.
Bottom line: Each filter type has a purpose.
It's like those silly magnetic buckles you can buy for your fuel line that are supposed to increase your fuel economy. Don't you think every manufacturer of a gas engine would have one on their product, if they worked? I'd even put one on my lawn mower, if they worked.
If you are talking only about performance, which in most cases means you are sacrificing longevity for performance, that's a different story. But I didn't buy my NC for its performance.
Bottom line: Each filter type has a purpose.
It's like those silly magnetic buckles you can buy for your fuel line that are supposed to increase your fuel economy. Don't you think every manufacturer of a gas engine would have one on their product, if they worked? I'd even put one on my lawn mower, if they worked.
Last edited:
DanWill
New Member
Being a bike that is sold on its economy figures the answer to your question " If there was a chance for better MPG or HP coming out of the engine, don't you think Honda would be using (or even selling as an option) an oil based filter?" The answer is no...
Honda probably doesn't sell the oil based filters simply because they wouldn't be able to mark them up like they do the paper filter. Think about it, the same paper filter you can get from an auto parts store, honda will charge three times as much for one with their name on it. Now the K&N filters are already twenty to thirty dollars so honda would get only a small markup if at all to sell them. Not worth it to them.
Is there more performance to be had from this engine? Yes, of course. The engine was tuned for efficiency not performance. Free flowing intake and exhaust can make a difference. And if there were a longevity issue with k&N filters, it would have been found and litigated by now. They have been selling for fifteen plus years.
To each his own, but don't be scared off a part because the bike didn't come from the factory with one, the whole aftermarket would collapse with thinking like that!
Honda probably doesn't sell the oil based filters simply because they wouldn't be able to mark them up like they do the paper filter. Think about it, the same paper filter you can get from an auto parts store, honda will charge three times as much for one with their name on it. Now the K&N filters are already twenty to thirty dollars so honda would get only a small markup if at all to sell them. Not worth it to them.
Is there more performance to be had from this engine? Yes, of course. The engine was tuned for efficiency not performance. Free flowing intake and exhaust can make a difference. And if there were a longevity issue with k&N filters, it would have been found and litigated by now. They have been selling for fifteen plus years.
To each his own, but don't be scared off a part because the bike didn't come from the factory with one, the whole aftermarket would collapse with thinking like that!
Similar threads
