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Question Would lack of ABS be a dealbreaker for you?

Makingitwork6999 said:
Hmmm. Okay. I have two 30 year instructor pins that say skiers live for the skid. One for snowboarding and one for skiing. I am one of maybe 5 in the United States. We live to skid. Anyone else want to tell me what skiers and snowboarders do???

I do an exercise on my NC bike. How many skids can I make traffic light to traffic light. It takes a while to warm up the back tire, but I can do about two each second. One left, and one right. It is very draining to do, but it can be done. I needed to use my Gopro to see what was actually happening. It is more of a lateral push. But the tire more or less skids.
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You appear to be an all around super talented person. It’s almost unbelievable.
 
Not a deal breaker. I own two road bikes without.

Having said that...
Even Honda's 125cc Monkey Bike has ABS... Would make our bike quite a bit safer in emergency and poor weather maneuvers.
 
I'd state it this way (and I think it's kind of what both of you are saying):
You don't want to unintentionally skid on the road. A bike on a public road in an unintentional skid (loss of control) is not a situation you want to have.
You also don't want to be so afraid of a skid you run off the road for fear of applying too much brake.
You DO want to practice skids in a controlled setting so you can both learn the limits of traction, and know what to do if you surpass them.

On topic, my NC has ABS, my Ninja does not. Only very rarely have I been in situations where ABS mattered, and in those situations where I was on the Ninja, I still made out just fine. Not having ABS would not deter me from buying a bike. There is a certain range of scenarios where ABS is going to make the difference, it's up to your personal assessment of risk to decide if it's worth it or not.

Important to note, a bike with ABS will operate EXACTLY like a bike without ABS except in situations where the ABS fires. The vast majority of the time (for normal street riding), if the ABS fires, the result is more favourable than non-ABS.
 
Makingitwork6999 said:
Dirt riding music


Keeps you high off the seat. Keeps you moving. Keeps the legs and feet pumping. You start to ignore slides and power through them. A skid becomes a power slide. You accelerate sideways then decelerate sideways. The DCT makes this so smooth that I almost never brake. So why would I need ABS?

If you are in manual mode or ride a manual transmission, you can feather braking front to rear and simulate an ABS-like action.

Truly advanced skills mean that you transition from one skill to another without thinking about it. It just happens. Like walking and chewing gum and wiggling a finger in your ear all at the same time.

Play more soul, funk, and disco while you ride rough slippery terrain. James Brown helps me clear my mind. I do not talk myself through a turn. I just “get up off of that thang”.

The music fills my thoughts. Big plus!!! No fear. The mind is at peace.
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After seeing your 13 posts on this one thread topic, I'm guessing lack of ABS is not a deal breaker for you.
 
Makingitwork6999 said:
Unintentional skids can be bad. Especially if you are frightened of them.
The only remedy is to prepare for them. Skid a lot. Recover a lot. Practice practice practice. A little self brain washing can’t hurt.
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Same reason we practice slow maneuvers in a parking lot. Anyone can ride a bike at decent speeds on decent roads and be fine. It's the "edge" cases that can get you into trouble. We should go out of our way to practice (in a controlled setting) the skills that are both rarely needed and extremely important when they are needed.

As a tangential example, among other things, I am a glider instructor. Part of the training for a glider pilot involves spins and spiral dives. There's ground-based theoretical lessons to learn about what they are, what causes them, the risks, and the recoveries. Then there's the air lessons where the student is shown the symptoms approaching these conditions, and then expected to recover from the spin or spiral with a minimum loss of altitude. We have a series of checks and limitations before attempting the maneuver to ensure everyone stays safe. "Normally" we don't want to spin or spiral our aircraft (except for training purposes, or for the sheer joy of it) but you better be damn sure you know how to recognize and correct before it happens, or as quickly as possible when it does happen, especially because the events leading up to one are often when things are already not going to plan and the ground is much closer than you would like it to be. These skills are practiced regularly by all pilots in our operation. The same goes for "rope break" procedures.
Learn the theory, practice the skill, hopefully avoid the scenario, be able to solve it if it happens.
 
It’s not experience that teaches riders not to panic grip stab the brakes to the point of lockup. We all know riders out there with riding skills no further advanced than those they learned 5, 10, or 50 years ago. They have to “lay er down” when in a tight situation instead of swerving and/or using weight transfer to maximize available braking because they never learned and practiced street survival skills. I know riders that never practice threshold braking because ABS will save their butt when they panic grab a handful of brakes. I’m not a Luddite to ABS but having it shouldn’t remove the need to regularly practice emergency braking and swerving drills. A full on 100% stop from 50 or 60 mph is a violent affair with a lot of g forces to the hands and arms, the bike pitching down collapsing the forks, and the rear wheel twitching side to side. When experienced in a safe environment it won’t be part of the surprise on the street that overwhelms a rider into panic mode and loss of total control even with ABS.

Determine to practice stopping a few minutes a month and even once a ride isn’t too much. Start slow from 20 or 30 miles an hour. Squeeeeeeze the brake lever with a one- two count and allow the time for weight transfer to load up the front tire to its maximum friction coefficient. Even with ABS a stab at a handful causes the ABS to cycle before maximum weight transfer occurs thus lengthening stopping distances. If you like to ride 70 mph on a nice back road then practice threshold braking from 70 mph.
 
Makingitwork6999 said:
ABS is more of an annoyance than a feature.
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I strongly disagree. ABS is a wonderful feature that, in the vast majority street riding, will do absolutely nothing different than a non-ABS system. Out of the remaining cases, extremely few of them would benefit from non-ABS over ABS. Very very very rarely would applying enough braking force to lock up one or both tires actually be a benefit. From an equipment perspective, a bike equipped with ABS is objectively superior to a bike without ABS for your average street use.

RELIANCE on additional safety features is detrimental, but not a product of safety features themselves. RELIANCE on safety features is a product of human laziness.
A bike equipped with ABS can be operated EXACTLY like a bike without ABS, with the added safety net of bailing you out when you exceed your skills. Choosing not to practice those skills is not a strike against ABS.

The argument/logic that ABS causes people to lose sight of their own skill could be applied as follows:
Cars don't need seatbelts and airbags, people should just practice their skills so they don't crash.
Winter tires are more of an annoyance than a feature, people should just use their abilities to drive more carefully in the snow and ice.
Brake lights and turn signals just make people complacent, just relying on the other car to tell them their intentions instead of paying attention themselves.
Why did we ever bother with disk brakes when drums work fine, you just need more skill to use them effectively.
Power steering and vacuum brake boost? Please, just get used to heavier steering and brakes you lazy people.
Why should a computer control fueling and spark when carburetors and distributor caps do a good enough job?
Hell, why even have a fuel gauge, just dip the tank before every drive and watch the odometer like the skilled individual I am!

Ultimately, technology that takes reliance on driver skill out of the equation in favour of safety, reliability, efficiency, etc. has proven time and time again to result in an overall benefit, even if people don't practice the "old skills" like they used to.
For example, "advanced safety systems" (lane assist, brake assist, blind spot monitoring, all those warnings you seem to have a problem with) are considered to have reduced collisions by a few percent, maybe 3.5%. But they also correspond to a reduction in insurance claims for both injury (-27%) and property damage (-19%). So you hate them because you find the bells and whistles annoying, but it real world applications and considering the general population, the roads are safer because of them. Not only are there somewhat fewer collisions, there is significantly less damage and injury.

But I do get it, I will continue to purchase manual shift cars until the day I am no longer able to find one to suit my needs. In general, modern (non-conventional) automatics such as the CVT or DSG (DCT) are "better" but I prefer a manual. I'm able to hold on to my opinion that a manual is better FOR ME, but I can't ignore that a modern (non-conventional) transmission is both objectively superior and requires less driver skill.


I'll also add that if you're finding ABS to be an annoyance, maybe you should learn to brake without exceeding the available grip, develop those skills! ;):p
 
Makingitwork6999 said:
I knew you would say that, Iron Warrior. We should do a point and counter point global streaming show based in the UK where people still watch stuff like that. We would make a fortune. You can be the protagonist, and I can be the plucky jokey antagonist. Or we could simply re-enact the black night scene from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".
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What are you going to do, bleed on me?
 
dduelin said:
It’s not experience that teaches riders not to panic grip stab the brakes to the point of lockup. We all know riders out there with riding skills no further advanced than those they learned 5, 10, or 50 years ago. They have to “lay er down” when in a tight situation instead of swerving and/or using weight transfer to maximize available braking because they never learned and practiced street survival skills. I know riders that never practice threshold braking because ABS will save their butt when they panic grab a handful of brakes. I’m not a Luddite to ABS but having it shouldn’t remove the need to regularly practice emergency braking and swerving drills. A full on 100% stop from 50 or 60 mph is a violent affair with a lot of g forces to the hands and arms, the bike pitching down collapsing the forks, and the rear wheel twitching side to side. When experienced in a safe environment it won’t be part of the surprise on the street that overwhelms a rider into panic mode and loss of total control even with ABS.

Determine to practice stopping a few minutes a month and even once a ride isn’t too much. Start slow from 20 or 30 miles an hour. Squeeeeeeze the brake lever with a one- two count and allow the time for weight transfer to load up the front tire to its maximum friction coefficient. Even with ABS a stab at a handful causes the ABS to cycle before maximum weight transfer occurs thus lengthening stopping distances. If you like to ride 70 mph on a nice back road then practice threshold braking from 70 mph.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Training is critical. I am not going into the science as to why simply because I am not qualified or credible on the topic. But what I can tell you is this. When you are faced with a situation that can cause you great harm or death, and you have trained yourself repeatedly and regularly of the options that are available to you to survive, you will exercise the skills you developed during those training exercises. It was explained to me this way. You know why people say "my life flashed before my eyes?" Because those people are reflexively searching their memory for a similar scenario as they find themselves faced with at that moment that produced the desired outcome of avoiding harm or death. When you train, that does not happen and the reflexive response is to revert back to the familiar and engrained memory that was wired through training that improves the odds of survival. You still may die or get hurt, but it would not be due to a lack of preparedness or action. But, if you had a system, tool, device, other positive outside intervention that improved your response, or ameliorated the risk, your odds of survival are increased.

In my opinion, the absence of ABS should be a deal breaker.
 
If one is verifiably an expert at brake manipulation, ABS won't hamper dirt braking. One would modulate the brake, expertly, below the threshold of ABS deployment.
 
Janus said:
If one is verifiably an expert at brake manipulation, ABS won't hamper dirt braking. One would modulate the brake, expertly, below the threshold of ABS deployment.
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Trail riding on dirt (not high speed maintained gravel roads), I would normally turn ABS off.
 
To me ABS is just another arrow in the quiver of safe riding. I like having, have for several years and have only Very rarely ever had it activate. With that said, I rode for decades without it on some pretty serious machines (FJR, 1050 Tiger, Goldwing GL1800). If I really liked the bike it wouldn’t make a difference. Given two identical bikes, one with, one without, I’d go for with every time.
 
Abs is what steered me to DCT which I love. In 80,000+ miles combined I have engaged it on my NC and Versys multiple times for animals or cars jumping out in front of me. People who say they can brake just as well without ABS in an emergency situation are kidding themselves.
 
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