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Not an Oil Thread

mzflorida

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Interesting episode of Engine Masters on Motor Trend. They were testing oil filters under the premise of seeing if more horsepower could be observed from one to another, though there was not a lot of discussion on HP. Long and the short of it, when considering filtering ability by micron, GPM, and pressure K & N Gold was clearly a better performer. It is probably on "On Demand" if you are interested. You can fast forward to the last 7 minutes for the results if you are allowed to FF on your provider's network.

Edit: There was no noted increase in horsepower. K&N performed better at flow and filtration with reduced pressure compared to the others in the sample. .
 
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MZ5

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I'm not sure I understand. Did they dyno test engines on a test stand dyno, or was this a theoretical discussion based on calculated power consumed by the process of pumping oil through a filter?
 

MZ5

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motortrendondemand gives me an "access denied" message, but thanks for clarifying.
 

mzflorida

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If you are a veteran, you can get a free subscription to MotorTrend streaming service. At least that is how I received my subscription and hoping it is still available for others.
 

itsmenc700

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Wait there was a HP change from the oil filter used??
Was it like 1-3HP or was it more?
I cant believe that is even a thing!!
 

mzflorida

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Wait there was a HP change from the oil filter used??
Was it like 1-3HP or was it more?
I cant believe that is even a thing!!
You know, I am not sure. It was the hypothesis of the show, that oil filters could increase HP, but i do not recall HP being addressed with any great depth at all. I did FF through some of it. Let me take a gander and I'll let you know. I guess theoretically it is possible? If there is enough energy to blow off one filter over another, and that force went to HP instead of oil pressure, could it translate to HP increase? I don't know.

EDIT: There was no significant increase or decrease in HP. They did have commentary on prior tests where oil pumps contributed to gains of 5 or 6 hp. it is at 16.13 in the video where they discuss no gains in HP.
 
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MZ5

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The fuel savings from using 0W20 rather than 5W30 (or for that matter, rather than just 5W20) is real and significant when measured across the entire fleet. That's the main (only?) reason Honda specs 10W30 for our bikes rather than 10W40.

If the viscosity of the fluid you're pumping impacts fuel consumption, the corollary is that it impacts power output. Since viscosity is resistance to flow, changing the amount of resistance to the flow of the lube oil in the engine system is what is impacting fuel consumption, and again as a corollary, power output.

Yeah?

That means that the resistance of different oil filters impact mpg (or power output).

The fact that a dynamometer lacks adequate precision to measure the change in power output does not alter the reality that there is a difference. More specifically, though, the other factors involved in power output in an engine almost certainly completely swamps the effect of the oil filter alone.

Yeah?
 
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670cc

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Worse yet, the NC DCT has TWO oil filters! The horsepower robbing horror!
 

mzflorida

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Before this devolves into an oil thread, K & N seems to be worth a try in order to protect your engines more effectively than others, Motor Trend streaming is free for veterans, and HP won't be increased by changing your oil filters or by watching car shows online. I don't want rotten vegetables thrown at me should we ever meet! for contributing to the birth of a satanic voodoo Santa Ria oil thread.
 

TheIronWarrior

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The fuel savings from using 0W20 rather than 5W30 (or for that matter, rather than just 5W20) is real and significant when measured across the entire fleet. That's the main (only?) reason Honda specs 10W30 for our bikes rather than 10W40.

If the viscosity of the fluid you're pumping impacts fuel consumption, the corollary is that it impacts power output. Since viscosity is resistance to flow, changing the amount of resistance to the flow of the lube oil in the engine system is what is impacting fuel consumption, and again as a corollary, power output.

Yeah?

That means that the resistance of different oil filters impact mpg (or power output).

The fact that a dynamometer lacks adequate precision to measure the change in power output does not alter the reality that there is a difference. More specifically, though, the other factors involved in power output in an engine almost certainly completely swamps the effect of the oil filter alone.

Yeah?
It's basically the same reason turning on the AC in a car impacts fuel economy and power output. Both an AC compressor and an oil pump are driven by the engine. Anything that takes engine power to run will impact power to the wheels.
How hard your oil pump has to work is impacted by how hard it is to move the oil through the system. A more restrictive filter is going to increase the pressure differential across the pump, increasing the HP requirement to run the pump. Since the engine produces a certain amount of HP, the more of that HP that gets used up by the pump, the less is available for the wheels.
That being said, I would imagine the power requirement of the oil pump is so low compared to the engine output, and that the pressure difference between filter options is so so small that the impact would be negligible (but non-zero).
 
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itsmenc700

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I'm confused. The first post was this - " They were testing oil filters under the premise of seeing if more horsepower could be observed from one to another.."
Then you didnt see any HP increase on the video?

And so now we are going to devolve into a oil filter post?
One to two HP increase from one filter - Sorry I am not that hard up for a HP increase.

AND - here's something I'm sure most will not like - the Honda filter is most likely holding you back that one or two HP - Better change it out!
 

TheIronWarrior

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One to two HP increase from one filter - Sorry I am not that hard up for a HP increase.
AND - here's something I'm sure most will not like - the Honda filter is most likely holding you back that one or two HP - Better change it out!
And remember that in general, the only two ways for a filter to flow more freely is by increasing the surface area of the filter media, or by increasing the pore size and filtering less out.
I find it hard to imagine cramming much more surface into the cartridge, so I expect your trade-off probably a few HP(or less) for dirtier oil flowing through your engine...
 

dduelin

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The fuel savings from using 0W20 rather than 5W30 (or for that matter, rather than just 5W20) is real and significant when measured across the entire fleet. That's the main (only?) reason Honda specs 10W30 for our bikes rather than 10W40.

If the viscosity of the fluid you're pumping impacts fuel consumption, the corollary is that it impacts power output. Since viscosity is resistance to flow, changing the amount of resistance to the flow of the lube oil in the engine system is what is impacting fuel consumption, and again as a corollary, power output.

Yeah?

That means that the resistance of different oil filters impact mpg (or power output).

The fact that a dynamometer lacks adequate precision to measure the change in power output does not alter the reality that there is a difference. More specifically, though, the other factors involved in power output in an engine almost certainly completely swamps the effect of the oil filter alone.

Yeah?
In 2006 Honda Motor Company standardized viscosity recommendation for street bikes to 10w30 from the previous 10w40 because of the findings of a study commissioned by Honda. The NC engine was not even a glimmer in NC700 project leader Soya Uchida eyes at that time. When I was working at a Honda dealer and authorized to purchase Honda Pro Chemical products for dealer resale I was able to read the study and findings.

By 2006 almost the entire Honda product line of street bikes was liquid cooled and Honda was still using 10w40 as the primary viscosity recommendation as a holdover from the earlier time when Honda street bike motorcycle engines were mostly air cooled. The study, done by Honda's oldest trading partner Idemitsu Kosan (over 70 years at that time), found that internal engine oil temperatures measured at the crankshaft and camshaft bearings was consistently cooler using 10w30. 10w30 flows easier than 10w40 at operating temperature and creates less heat from internal friction between moving parts even with lower clearances designed to reduce wear. Tolerances can be tighter and the oil film still remains cooler. In theory and practice the engine runs cooler and lasts longer. Honda's reputation in the powersports and automotive industry has borne that out.

Liquid cooled engines are designed to operate in a narrow band of operating temperature and the cooling system should be of sufficient capacity to hold coolant temps in range across the full range of ambient air temperature that might be encountered. Therefore the oil also remains in a narrow range of temperature and does not have to cover the wider range that air cooled engine oil must cover. Honda took the study findings and made 10w30 the primary recommendation and 10w40 moved to a secondary recommendation along with 15w40 and 20w50 in 2006-2007 and later service and owners manuals.

Fuel economy was not the main reason for Honda's standardization of viscosity at 10w30 for powersports engines, it was for lower oil temperature thus longer oil change intervals coupled with lower wear. A bonus is that 10w30 does provide slightly better fuel economy than 10w40 and due to less friction and pumping losses slightly more horsepower. The study did mention this and Honda had some point of sale literature promoting this for CBR series sport bikes.
 
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670cc

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Sounds like we’ve covered it. No horsepower gain, which was supposedly the premise of the video, was detected in the “test”. Motortrend free streaming service for certain people was promoted, but other viewers apparently must pay for the service. K&N oil filters were promoted for their filtering ability and other attributes.

dduelin, thank you for the informative post #14, as it applies to Honda motorcycles.

Can anything else (of value) be said, or should we close this thread?

Going once . . .
 

Doc True

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Sounds like we’ve covered it. No horsepower gain, which was supposedly the premise of the video, was detected in the “test”. Motortrend free streaming service for certain people was promoted. K&N oil filters were promoted for their filtering ability and other attributes.

dduelin, thank you for the informative post #14, as it applies to Honda motorcycles.

Can anything else (of value) be said, or should we close this thread?

Yes, Italian bikes should only use olive oil for maximum performance. When storing for the winter, rosemary should be added
 

670cc

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Yes, Italian bikes should only use olive oil for maximum performance. When storing for the winter, rosemary should be added
Thank you for that info.

Thread opportunity going twice.
 
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MZ5

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In 2006 Honda Motor Company standardized viscosity recommendation for street bikes to 10w30 from the previous 10w40
That is why Honda specifies 10W30 in the NCX engine. Whether the NCX engine had been developed yet or not is immaterial.
The study, done by Honda's oldest trading partner Idemitsu Kosan (over 70 years at that time), found that internal engine oil temperatures measured at the crankshaft and camshaft bearings was consistently cooler using 10w30.
Oil temp is an easily-measured manifestation of the additional power and fuel wasted by higher-viscosity oils. Thank you for bringing that into the discussion, as it is a much easier way to see the wasted fuel that drove Honda (who have had a core organizational philosophy of using less fuel and other resources for a long time) to make the viscosity recommendation change.

Interestingly, if you watch oil temps what you'll find is that there's an optimal* fluid viscosity. Use a too-thick fluid (vs optimal) and oil temps rise. Use a too-thin fluid and oil temps also rise. The former is due to wasted power and fuel. The latter is due to excess metal-to-metal contact and wear. This reality is how we know that the oil temp work you refer to was about wasted fuel. Had the data they collected been used to INCREASE viscosity, that would have told us the recommendation change was about wear and durability. That the outcome was to REDUCE viscosity demonstrates that the recommendation change was entirely about fuel savings.

*NOTE: "Optimal" depends a very great deal on use case. Racetrack or high-speed Autobahn use of a small-displacement engine has a very different 'optimal' point than average American-street use of a larger-displacement engine.
 
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