NC750x DCT <-- Drive Mag, Best Commuter Motorcycle

halfSpinDoctor

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Just curious - anyone here add the foot shifter option for the DCT? (Yes, I know you can just shift with the buttons on the left grip, and that the optional shifter is expensive).

I currently have a man'l, but for me, that might change the equation to switch to a DCT, because it makes it more familiar and keeps the "workflow" of shifting the same as other bikes.
 

melensdad

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Sounds like that was that the 1st generation DCT.

Honda has been on Gen 3 of the DCT from 2016 forward. Gen 3 is an adaptive transmission that learns from your riding style. Sometime I will paddle shift for the fun of it, sometime in preparation to pass, etc. But rarely do I feel the need to override, especially if I am in S2.
 

jreinhardt

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Sounds like that was that the 1st generation DCT.

Honda has been on Gen 3 of the DCT from 2016 forward. Gen 3 is an adaptive transmission that learns from your riding style. Sometime I will paddle shift for the fun of it, sometime in preparation to pass, etc. But rarely do I feel the need to override, especially if I am in S2.
Yes, the demo was 1st gen. And I agree the 3rd gen is much improved and "smarter"'. But sometimes I like to hold a gear in manual mode when riding tight twisties or downshifting a couple of gears in auto or sport - when I want to, for whatever reason. It is probably more a riding style difference than anything. We both will "get there" at the same time!
 

670cc

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NC series DCT started at Gen 2. Gen 1 was on the VFR, which I test rode in summer 2010, before the NC series was released.
 
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670cc

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Sounds like that was that the 1st generation DCT.

Honda has been on Gen 3 of the DCT from 2016 forward. Gen 3 is an adaptive transmission that learns from your riding style. Sometime I will paddle shift for the fun of it, sometime in preparation to pass, etc. But rarely do I feel the need to override, especially if I am in S2.
I would sure like an explanation of how the transmission can learn from your riding style.
 

melensdad

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I would sure like an explanation of how the transmission can learn from your riding style.
I got no clue how they do it but apparently its adaptive in the same way some of the Audi transmissions are adaptive. It 'learns' to shift faster with more aggressive driving/riding.
 

670cc

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Just curious - anyone here add the foot shifter option for the DCT? (Yes, I know you can just shift with the buttons on the left grip, and that the optional shifter is expensive).

I currently have a man'l, but for me, that might change the equation to switch to a DCT, because it makes it more familiar and keeps the "workflow" of shifting the same as other bikes.
You can apparently order the change pedal kit from web!ke in Japan. https://japan.webike.net/ps/08U70-MGS-J51/#!search&p.k=08U70-MGS-J51

If you search our forum for DCT foot shifter you’ll find posts from people that have installed it.
 

670cc

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I got no clue how they do it but apparently its adaptive in the same way some of the Audi transmissions are adaptive. It 'learns' to shift faster with more aggressive driving/riding.
Yes, I don’t think even Honda has explained it, nor am I even sure that Honda claimed that the adaptive feature even existed.

So if I buy a used gen 3 DCT motorcycle, how would I erase the previous owner’s adaptation, so it could learn my behavior instead? Or, does the DCT just forget about the previous owner after a while?
 

melensdad

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Yes, I don’t think even Honda has explained it, nor am I even sure that Honda claimed that the adaptive feature even existed.

So if I buy a used gen 3 DCT motorcycle, how would I erase the previous owner’s adaptation, so it could learn my behavior instead? Or, does the DCT just forget about the previous owner after a while?

 

davidc83

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Yes, I don’t think even Honda has explained it, nor am I even sure that Honda claimed that the adaptive feature even existed.

So if I buy a used gen 3 DCT motorcycle, how would I erase the previous owner’s adaptation, so it could learn my behavior instead? Or, does the DCT just forget about the previous owner after a while?
Unplug the battery for a couple of hours and the computer should reset...or maybe Honda has a procedure in the owners manual on how to reset the adaptive learning.
 

670cc

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It is probably a computer program in the ECU (I think that is where the computer logic is kept).
Unplug the battery for a couple of hours and the computer should reset...or maybe Honda has a procedure in the owners manual on how to reset the adaptive learning.
All the same, I don’t buy into this DCT adaptive learning thing. I don’t remember seeing Honda advertising this feature. I think customers made this up. Honda claims something called Adaptive Clutch Capability Control for clutch engagement management, but nothing about about learning a rider’s riding style. See this press release:https://hondanews.eu/eu/en/motorcycles/media/pressreleases/196633/2020-honda-nc750x-8

Again, I would be interested in seeing a technical explanation from Honda on how the DCT shift patterns are customized to a particular owner’s riding style.
 
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670cc

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These procedures are for calibrating clutch engagement. I am trying to understand how the DCT is claimed to learn a rider’s “riding style“.

By the way, it is quite primitive that a customer would, at any time, need to recalibrate the clutch engagement parameters. Can you imagine if this was required of an average automobile owner? Do you think the average car owner would accept having to recalibrate their clutch periodically? My car has DCT and I‘ve never had to recalibrate the clutch engagement .
 
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melensdad

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Again, no clue. Just was a selling point from 2 different dealers. First when I bought the '16 NC700x in southern Indiana and then when I bought the '18 locally. Same sales pitch so it must have come from Honda. Pretty sure a couple publications commented that the new 3rd generation is both an improvement and adapts to your riding by altering its shift pattern based on your riding. I sold candy to kids for a living so asking me to explain the technical aspects of a DCT is not something I'm going to be able to do for you.
 

dduelin

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The adaptive learning of the transmission we sometimes want to ascribe to stored memory and applicable to future rides but it has nothing to do with storing information over time. The programming of the PCM takes in real time information from various sensors at the wheels and in the transmission and alters shift points for the moment. For example if the rider is holding open wide throttle settings and the road speed is increasing appropriately in response to a wide open throttle it holds shift points longer to aid acceleration. If the rear wheel has lost traction on a dirt road and the engine revs up unexpectedly it doesn't blindly upshift at redline - it compares gear selection and engine speed to expected increase in road speed. If it doesn't match up to programmed expected acceleration it holds the current gear based on programming of the selected mode. If I was riding fast on winding roads and repeatedly dialing up WOT out of corners the PCM extends shift and downshift points appropriately. If I suddenly return to a more sedate riding style out of the last curve I'm necessarily asking less of the engine, it's rpm is steady or slowly changing, road speed is more steady and changing less rapidly so the PCM adapts the shift points to a sedate pace.

I think Honda called it "riding conditions monitoring". The Technology site use to have lots of DCT information but not so much anymore: https://global.honda/innovation/technology/motorcycle/DCT-picturebook.html
 

670cc

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The adaptive learning of the transmission we sometimes want to ascribe to stored memory and applicable to future rides but it has nothing to do with storing information over time. The programming of the PCM takes in real time information from various sensors at the wheels and in the transmission and alters shift points for the moment. For example if the rider is holding open wide throttle settings and the road speed is increasing appropriately in response to a wide open throttle it holds shift points longer to aid acceleration. If the rear wheel has lost traction on a dirt road and the engine revs up unexpectedly it doesn't blindly upshift at redline - it compares gear selection and engine speed to expected increase in road speed. If it doesn't match up to programmed expected acceleration it holds the current gear based on programming of the selected mode. If I was riding fast on winding roads and repeatedly dialing up WOT out of corners the PCM extends shift and downshift points appropriately. If I suddenly return to a more sedate riding style out of the last curve I'm necessarily asking less of the engine, it's rpm is steady or slowly changing, road speed is more steady and changing less rapidly so the PCM adapts the shift points to a sedate pace.

I think Honda called it "riding conditions monitoring". The Technology site use to have lots of DCT information but not so much anymore: https://global.honda/innovation/technology/motorcycle/DCT-picturebook.html
Thank you, thank you, thank you, dduelin.

Your explanation of the Honda DCT programming is entirely plausible. Sadly, I think salepersons, and perhaps journalists, have touted DCT programming up to an imaginary, artificial intelligence level that duped buyers into believing that the DCT has “learning” capabilities beyond what Honda ever claimed it to have.
 

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Not to put too fine a point on it , but if you mostly commute city traffic and expressways - there's not much call for manual shifting. for me, I have 3 different main rural routes and 4 sub-routes to get to a highway to the city, or other rural roads. Living in the sticks on twisty backroads, the default shifting is only for those lazy moments. I downshift 1,2, or 3 gears at a time depending on slope and bend of corners or elevation changes. Bike is really peppy and responsive when you use paddles to get the right RPM for YOU. Bikes job it seems is to get into the highest practical gear all the time if left to its own choices. I leave mine in D, and shift to get the rpms where i want them. Its a really smooth, reliable, fast system thats hard to shift badly. Once I hit a main road, its convenient to let the bike cruise on its own. Manual mode for ME is a little too much ... effort? Have to do ups and downs with more thought. With full auto you can downshift to get rpms right for corner, and let it upshift when you roll off the throttle. I had to adapt and get used to it, but now its second nature, and I dont even think anymore is so ingrained. The response from the bike is a lot more satisfying.
 

670cc

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Not to put too fine a point on it , but if you mostly commute city traffic and expressways - there's not much call for manual shifting. for me, I have 3 different main rural routes and 4 sub-routes to get to a highway to the city, or other rural roads. Living in the sticks on twisty backroads, the default shifting is only for those lazy moments. I downshift 1,2, or 3 gears at a time depending on slope and bend of corners or elevation changes. Bike is really peppy and responsive when you use paddles to get the right RPM for YOU. Bikes job it seems is to get into the highest practical gear all the time if left to its own choices. I leave mine in D, and shift to get the rpms where i want them. Its a really smooth, reliable, fast system thats hard to shift badly. Once I hit a main road, its convenient to let the bike cruise on its own. Manual mode for ME is a little too much ... effort? Have to do ups and downs with more thought. With full auto you can downshift to get rpms right for corner, and let it upshift when you roll off the throttle. I had to adapt and get used to it, but now its second nature, and I dont even think anymore is so ingrained. The response from the bike is a lot more satisfying.
Yes, the DCT can react to what is happening or what has happened, but it lacks situational awareness to shift accordingly for what WILL happen. That's when the rider needs to take over and shift manually for the upcoming steep hill, sharp corner, etc.
 
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