Front Brake Caliper Upgrade - Part Numbers?

L.B.S.

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I doubt that we even disagree Lane. As bad as all of that was and as knackered as you are today, would you feel better or worse if instead you had pile-drived the rear of a car because you didn't have sufficient braking power to stop the motorcycle?
Ha ha, I know we are on the same page, as I would have wanted to do exactly the same thing with my front caliper as you did, if I would have been able to get a non ABS version.

I am in 100% agreement with your above statement. Like gasoline, you can't have too much unless you're on fire, and I am a front brake loving demon.

I would trade ABS and Linked set up in a heartbeat for a non nannied front brake, with three pistons controlled by me. I do not like my front brake coming on when I do not want it on, and have zero control over it.
 

lootzyan

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We are getting there, but pressure is not "divided"...
Are we talking potato-potato here?
I am over 45 years from my fluid mechanics classes so it take lot of nut oil to bring those memories to the top.

One more time from the beginning: When there is no more flow of (incompressible in theory) hydraulic fluid, brake pads are pushed against rotor, the hydraulic pressure depends from force used on pushrod and size of master cylinder piston. The pressure in line and caliper pressure chamber reaches 500 PSI. Then, what is a pressure per piston? Is it "divided" by number of pistons in chamber? 2 pistons = 250 PSI. 3 pistons = 167 PSI per piston?
What did I miss here?

BTW, how do you deal with increased movement of master cylinder piston when you changed to 3-piston caliper?
 

Griff

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where are they made now?
Now that you mention it I could be wrong on that one :eek:

I had heard it mentioned somewhere that manufacture had shifted to one of the other Asian countries. I googled it this minute and the local Honda centre suggest it is still made in Japan. Perhaps someone could look at the manufacturers plate on theirs to clarify ?
 

Beemerphile

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In the real world non ABS riders have to be 100% on their game in these "stop in time or go to the emergency room" scenarios. This is on surfaces that might be less than ideal, in lighting less than ideal, with aging nerves and muscles that are less than ideal. Get it wrong less than 100% of the time and you may go to the emergency room anyway. Marginally less effective braking systems managed by head scratching electrons get it right 100% of the time, at least to the point of keeping the rider upright with options to the very end. Even if they take a few feet further to stop which is the better wager to lay your bet on?
I don't disagree Dave, but I am talking about making the best of what we have. This is not about whether ABS is better. Done well, it is. But ABS does not make weak brakes strong, it effectively and scientifically makes strong brakes weak. If you put electrons in charge of weak brakes, you won't lock up, but you won't stop either. Ride a bike with ABS on top of dual 330 mm rotors with Brembo radial calipers and then ride an ABS NC. Both have ABS. I am only saying that Honda had an opportunity to strengthen the stopping power of this bike and chose not to do it for whatever good or bad reason. Caliper/rotor/pad/hose/master cylinder upgrades help the stopping power of ABS bikes just as they help the stopping power of non-ABS bikes. Otherwise, the NC would stop as well as a KTM 990 SM-T because both have ABS. Ride both and then tell me it is so.

I have never owned an ABS bike. I am not against it, but in 2004 when I bought my BMW, they had those silly servo ABS brakes that were horrible. When I bought the NC, Honda had their DCT LIVES MATTER program going and wouldn't sell me ABS with a manual. So, I found a way to improve the brakes I have. The other day it might have very well saved my bacon. If I had the NC with ABS I would probably be looking for improvements for it as well. I put dual disks on my 1975 BMW. I put a 6-piston Harrison caliper and larger rotor on my single disk R100GS. I put 4-piston R1150 calipers on my dual disk R100RT. The Honda doesn't give much room for a double disk conversion, so a stronger caliper or possibly a larger rotor are about the only choices. If I ever find a KTM 990 SM-T that has been smashed in the rear, I will find a way to put the entire front end on my NC - Bosch ABS and all.

I have never regretted a brake system upgrade. Obviously, they have to be done well.
 

Beemerphile

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Are we talking potato-potato here?
I am over 45 years from my fluid mechanics classes so it take lot of nut oil to bring those memories to the top.

One more time from the beginning: When there is no more flow of (incompressible in theory) hydraulic fluid, brake pads are pushed against rotor, the hydraulic pressure depends from force used on pushrod and size of master cylinder piston. The pressure in line and caliper pressure chamber reaches 500 PSI. Then, what is a pressure per piston? Is it "divided" by number of pistons in chamber? 2 pistons = 250 PSI. 3 pistons = 167 PSI per piston?
What did I miss here?
Pressure is not divided. Using the old analogy of hydraulic and electronic circuits, pressure is analogous to voltage. In a hydrostatic system (which the brake system is once the lever quits moving) there is no pressure drop just as in an electronic circuit with no current there is no voltage drop. If you did "nodal analysis" on the brake system, every point in the brake hose would be at the same pressure, otherwise flow would occur. So, the pressure at the discharge of the master cylinder is the same as the pressure at each of the three pistons. The hydrostatic force that each piston applies is the system pressure (there is only one) times the area of each piston.

BTW, how do you deal with increased movement of master cylinder piston when you changed to 3-piston caliper?
You only have to deal with it if it become excessive. In this case, it did not. The master cylinder is 14mm in diameter. For a single caliper system, that is actually pretty large. The 3rd piston in the 3-piston caliper is smaller than the other two so the amount of increase was not too large. In systems where I have gone from single to dual disks (doubling the piston volume) it was necessary to use a larger master cylinder diameter in order to get the lever travel down. A larger master cylinder makes the lever feel "harder" because it moves less. But since there is less multiplication of force, a 20 lb. pull results in less hydraulic pressure with a larger cylinder than it does with a smaller cylinder. So long as the lever does not travel too far though, I find that some travel makes the brakes feel more controllable. That was the case with the 3-piston caliper on the NC. I could feel the extra travel, but not only was it not enough to be a problem, I actually preferred it.
 
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Beemerphile

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Ha ha, I know we are on the same page, as I would have wanted to do exactly the same thing with my front caliper as you did, if I would have been able to get a non ABS version.

I am in 100% agreement with your above statement. Like gasoline, you can't have too much unless you're on fire, and I am a front brake loving demon.

I would trade ABS and Linked set up in a heartbeat for a non nannied front brake, with three pistons controlled by me. I do not like my front brake coming on when I do not want it on, and have zero control over it.

You might be a candidate for blocking the second line to the front caliper and running a jumper hose to connect the two circuits on the front caliper. With a blocked port, the ABS controller will think it is applying front braking, but it will not be. Since your ABS controller will start chopping the pressure to the front if it locks, your front ABS should still work the same. It would not be too hard to test - a 5 inch jumper hose, a double banjo bolt, and a plug. Easily restored if it acted wonky. I should throw in a big lawyerly disclaimer and say that you are a fool if you try it, but it is us fools who create history. The boring guys simply write about it.
 
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kpinvt

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Now that you mention it I could be wrong on that one :eek:

I had heard it mentioned somewhere that manufacture had shifted to one of the other Asian countries. I googled it this minute and the local Honda centre suggest it is still made in Japan. Perhaps someone could look at the manufacturers plate on theirs to clarify ?
My 2014 DCT bike was put together in Japan with parts from who knows where.
 

lootzyan

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Pressure is not divided... .
Yes, you're right. I was taking analogy to current circuit, where main current is divided into branch currents. When hydraulic system is in equilibrium there is no more flow so the pressure is equalized over all surface area. (Good anti-dementia exercises).
Btw, front master piston O.D. is 11mm, rear piston O.D. is 14 mm (p. 19-5)

My front brake lever feels very spongy. I spend long time suspecting air in the system but couldn't improve that. But with the ABS modulator powered everything change. Brakes are very responsive to lever movement. This is one area when I praise ABS. The main goal of ABS system ? I hope to never find out and so far I didn't notice ABS in action.
 

dduelin

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I don't disagree Dave, but I am talking about making the best of what we have. This is not about whether ABS is better. Done well, it is. But ABS does not make weak brakes strong, it effectively and scientifically makes strong brakes weak. If you put electrons in charge of weak brakes, you won't lock up, but you won't stop either. Ride a bike with ABS on top of dual 330 mm rotors with Brembo radial calipers and then ride an ABS NC. Both have ABS. I am only saying that Honda had an opportunity to strengthen the stopping power of this bike and chose not to do it for whatever good or bad reason. Caliper/rotor/pad/hose/master cylinder upgrades help the stopping power of ABS bikes just as they help the stopping power of non-ABS bikes. Otherwise, the NC would stop as well as a KTM 990 SM-T because both have ABS. Ride both and then tell me it is so.

I have never owned an ABS bike. I am not against it, but in 2004 when I bought my BMW, they had those silly servo ABS brakes that were horrible. When I bought the NC, Honda had their DCT LIVES MATTER program going and wouldn't sell me ABS with a manual. So, I found a way to improve the brakes I have. The other day it might have very well saved my bacon. If I had the NC with ABS I would probably be looking for improvements for it as well. I put dual disks on my 1975 BMW. I put a 6-piston Harrison caliper and larger rotor on my single disk R100GS. I put 4-piston R1150 calipers on my dual disk R100RT. The Honda doesn't give much room for a double disk conversion, so a stronger caliper or possibly a larger rotor are about the only choices. If I ever find a KTM 990 SM-T that has been smashed in the rear, I will find a way to put the entire front end on my NC - Bosch ABS and all.

I have never regretted a brake system upgrade. Obviously, they have to be done well.
Angels on the head of a pin.

When MCN tested the two piston caliper non ABS 2012 it stopped in ~115 feet from 60 MPH. This figure was and still is better than most twin disc sportbikes with two big 3 or 4 piston caliper set ups. Better than most every production standard or touring through today. There are very few bikes MCN tested that betters 115'. MCN is better than most when using test methodologies so the figure is reliable and is comparable to other publications that archive tests. Run your finger done the lists and very few bikes garner shorter stop times.

The single disc set up probably wouldn't last long running down a long pass in the Alps before it faded from heat but for single stops, short repetitions for emergency brake testing, or normal sporting use it does just fine and better than most. That's why when those guys start talking about the NC's wimpy single disc brake I give their opinion a little, or a lot, less weight. They simply don't know what they are talking about.

No doubt the braking system can be improved, everything system can, and your bike is undoubtably the best example of one man's ideal $7,000 motorcycle.
 

Beemerphile

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No doubt the braking system can be improved, everything system can, and your bike is undoubtably the best example of one man's ideal $7,000 motorcycle.
Thanks, but, well, it's not exactly a $7,000 motorcycle anyone - especially if I find that crashed KTM SM-T! Stronger brakes are much more linear and progressive and therefore easier to modulate. When you are your own ABS computer, that is important. I have never regretted increasing the braking performance of a motorcycle, and I have never owned a motorcycle that I was not able to improve the brakes on. Maybe if I owned that SM-T I'd have to leave it the H alone.
 

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ok so i did some phoning around and a single braided hose for the front non ABS system will be around the equivalent of $85 US (Remember im in South Africa so im converting currency as best i can)
and the caliper upgrade(new parts) as bemeerphile did is...wait for it..... $760

OUCH!!!!!!!

cant afford that.
anyone selling a front 3 pot caliper? that i dont have to sell my kidney for? or know where i can get one(the place must be willing to ship to South Africa, normal international post is fine)
 

Beemerphile

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There aren't many NC parts showing up yet from the dismantlers, but there are a few. It would be an extended term search probably to find one.

(Time for some wise guy to comment that the bikes with ABS don't end up with the dismantlers because they never wreck.)
 

670cc

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There aren't many NC parts showing up yet from the dismantlers, but there are a few. It would be an extended term search probably to find one.

(Time for some wise guy to comment that the bikes with ABS don't end up with the dismantlers because they never wreck.)
That should work to his advantage. Some will say a wrecked ABS bike most likely got rear ended, right? So the front end would be fine for parting out.
 

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I think it's important to remember that the 3 piston front caliper was only using the 3rd piston when the bike was using the Honda Combination Braking System. If your bike doesn't have that (as in, it's a non-ABS NC700x), it won't be using the third piston in that new front caliper anyway.

That's not to say that the caliper isn't a better designed caliper than the non-ABS 2 piston caliper, but you aren't using the third piston.

You may find that changing to stainless steel lines and bleeding your brakes gives you the increased braking pressure you're looking for, without the cost of buying a caliper you won't be using.
 

Beemerphile

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I think it's important to remember that the 3 piston front caliper was only using the 3rd piston when the bike was using the Honda Combination Braking System. If your bike doesn't have that (as in, it's a non-ABS NC700x), it won't be using the third piston in that new front caliper anyway.
It will if you run a jumper hose between the two as I did. All three very much work on my non ABS bike. The improvement is significant.
 

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It will if you run a jumper hose between the two as I did. All three very much work on my non ABS bike. The improvement is significant.
Oh yeah, absolutely. I bet the front brake feels fantastic on your bike -- not that it's lacking on my stock non-ABS, but it could be better.

Does your setup work the way Honda's combination braking normally does? As in, you apply the rear brake and it applies the front as well; But if you only apply the front it won't apply the rear?
 
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Willio

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Hey mates, I read that you fitted the ABS front caliber to your non ABS bike. I was just wondering how it went on? Since I see on the ABS caliber there are two places fluid hoses connect with the caliber. On the non ABS there is only one hose. So what did you do here please?
 

Beemerphile

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Hey mates, I read that you fitted the ABS front caliber to your non ABS bike. I was just wondering how it went on? Since I see on the ABS caliber there are two places fluid hoses connect with the caliber. On the non ABS there is only one hose. So what did you do here please?
Run a short jumper hose or hard line between the two ports. One port will have double banjos and a longer banjo bolt with a hose to the front master cylinder.

Details here...

http://http://nc700-forum.com/forum/nc700-mods/822-extreme-farkling-whoa-nellie.html?highlight=Extreme+whoa
 
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