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Brake balance, NC750 SA 2016

Pharfar - you stated a brake balance of "70/30" but I don't think you can apply such numbers to a motorcycle that has separate controls for front & rear brakes and perhaps linked system. The brake balance numbers are more for cars where one brake pedal operates front & rear brakes and there is a proportioning valve in the hydraulic system to maintain that balance.
 
Pharfar - you stated a brake balance of "70/30" but I don't think you can apply such numbers to a motorcycle that has separate controls for front & rear brakes and perhaps linked system. The brake balance numbers are more for cars where one brake pedal operates front & rear brakes and there is a proportioning valve in the hydraulic system to maintain that balance.

I assumed he was talking about brake force in terms of how much of your total braking is represented individually by front and rear. The 70 / 30 rule is that 70% of your stopping power comes from your front brakes alone, 30% from rear. He mentioned the rear rotor being small, but first he must understand why it is small. It is because Most of your stopping power comes from the front, this is why front brake rotors are much larger than rear. It doesn't take much to lock up a rear tire regardless of how fast you're going, so a single small rotor on the rear is more than plenty for even the fastest or heaviest bikes. An oversized single front rotor is sufficient for stopping power on the NC, but on higher performance bikes, you need dual front rotors to have sufficient stopping power in high speed applications or on heavy touring/cruiser bikes - my Vulcan Nomad 1600 bagger has dual front brakes.

Proper braking technique, abs or not, is to always use both front and rear brakes together and never apply more rear brakes than front. It's safer to just not use rear brakes at all than to overapply them.
 
Post #16 by 670cc, only 2012-2013 ABS bikes had linked brakes with the three piston front caliper. Linked brakes did not appear on 2014 and later bikes.

Did a bit of digging on the Honda website. Went into their archives.

Honda is saying they are using linked brakes.

HONDA said:
DISC BRAKES WITH AVAILABLE COMBINED ABS

Single front and rear disc brakes give the NC750X great stopping power. The DCT model comes with ABS brakes that are linked rear-to-front for added stopping power, even under challenging conditions.

Honda is claiming linked brakes on the 2016 through 2019 model year NC700x and NC750x bikes, but only the models with DCT.

As the NC700/750 model was updated in 2016 and is basically the same from 2016 forward I went back and checked the Honda pages. I presume (but do not know if) the pages are correct.

Link to Honda's page that references 2019 linked brakes => 2019 NC750X FEATURES - Honda
The exact same quote in also on the 2018 page => 2018 NC750X FEATURES - Honda
Again, same wording for the model year 2017 page => 2017 NC700X FEATURES - Honda
Ditto, exact same wording on the 2016 page => 2016 NC700X FEATURES - Honda
 
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The definitions of linked and combined are not clear to me. On the 2012 and 2013, it was obvious what was going on, since the plumbing and hardware were right there to see.

What would be interesting is to raise one wheel on a 2014-2019 ABS model, spin the wheel, and operate the brake for the other wheel to see if it has any effect on the spinning wheel. Are they linked in any way? Are they linked only if ABS is activated? Did the brake design change in 2014? In 2016?
 
The definitions of linked and combined are not clear to me. On the 2012 and 2013, it was obvious what was going on, since the plumbing and hardware were right there to see.

What would be interesting is to raise one wheel on a 2014-2019 ABS model, spin the wheel, and operate the brake for the other wheel to see if it has any effect on the spinning wheel. Are they linked in any way? Are they linked only if ABS is activated? Did the brake design change in 2014? In 2016?

I don't think the linking or combining kicks on when ABS is activated.

The way it was on the Harley street glide I sold a few months ago (linked ABS), there is a central ABS block that all brake lines ran through, that has electronic valves in it. The electronic valves are what controlls and proportions braking power. If memory serves me right, when applying the rear brake, it utilizes 100% of the rear brake and only the left front caliper (dual front brakes). When applying front brake, it utilizes both front brakes and something like 50% pressure goes to the rear brake, all controlled by this ABS block with electronic valves that control brake fluid flow.

I am not sure how the NC's linked ABS system is made, I just hope like hell it's designed better than the Harley brake system. They make a big deal out of changing brake fluid at least every 2 years on those linked abs Harleys, because the valves in the ABS block can get gunked up and stick effectively locking up the brakes when you apply them. Several crashes reported as a result.
 
No clue about 2014-15 models; those were the previous generation. Newest generation started in 2016 with updated body plastics and newest DCT.
 
On my 13 "S" the link is from rear to front as 670 described where applying the rear brake moves one of the three pistons in the front. There is no relation to the ABS.
 
Perhaps the easiest way to determine if your NC has a linked system is to check the front caliper. If it has 3 pistons and 2 bleeder screws it's part of a linked system.
 
Perhaps the easiest way to determine if your NC has a linked system is to check the front caliper. If it has 3 pistons and 2 bleeder screws it's part of a linked system.

If it’s that simple, and perhaps it is, then Honda is supplying false information on their web site for current 2019 models. The current web page claims that the 2019 ABS model’s brakes are linked, but we can see that the front caliper has two pistons and it’s fed by one brake hose.

Maybe the 2019 model NC750X service manual would explain how this new linked brake system works. I don’t happen to have that manual to check it out.
 
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If it’s that simple, and perhaps it is, then Honda is supplying false information on their web site for current 2019 models. The current web page claims that the 2019 ABS model’s brakes are linked, but we can see that the front caliper has two pistons and it’s fed by one brake hose...

I can confirm that 2016 and 2018 (both DTC models) have the identical set up to the 2019.

The 2016-2019 use identical wording on their respective Honda web pages to describe the linked brakes.
 
Maybe instead of using an extra brake line to control the center piston on the front caliper when applying rear brake, they use an abs block similar to the harley's that somehow proportions a percentage of the front brake pressure when applying rear brake.

Linked would also mean applying front brakes should affect rear brake too, right? If so, how does it do that? Same concept? I wouldn't think "linked" brakes only apply when using the rear brake.

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Maybe instead of using an extra brake line to control the center piston on the front caliper when applying rear brake, they use an abs block similar to the harley's that somehow proportions a percentage of the front brake pressure when applying rear brake.

Linked would also mean applying front brakes should affect rear brake too, right? If so, how does it do that? Same concept? I wouldn't think "linked" brakes only apply when using the rear brake.

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Appears that may be the case.


Taken from adv forum

3799bdfee34847a617e30ff218eb502c.jpg


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That would explain Honda's doing away of the 3 pot caliper while still maintaining linked abs on newer models with 2 pot front calipers.

There isn't too many ways to link abs brakes if you think about it. So that makes sense.

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The definitions of linked and combined are not clear to me. On the 2012 and 2013, it was obvious what was going on, since the plumbing and hardware were right there to see.

What would be interesting is to raise one wheel on a 2014-2019 ABS model, spin the wheel, and operate the brake for the other wheel to see if it has any effect on the spinning wheel. Are they linked in any way? Are they linked only if ABS is activated? Did the brake design change in 2014? In 2016?
Yes, we did this with a 2018 DCT when I worked at the dealership. The brakes aren't linked front to rear, rear to front, or at all. This is an old topic rehashed. Who knows why Honda doesn't change the website. They did change it from linked to "2 Channel ABS" with DCT models at some point. I didn't bother to look it up today, I did all this in the past, and talked to our Honda technical rep about it last year.

For several years about 10 years ago Honda did build an an electronic C-ABS system on the 600cc supersport and liter bikes. If the 700/750s had it there would be a two motor control units, one for each wheel, two wheel valve units and a dedicated electronic control unit for each wheel. The 700/750s have similar ABS one-box modulators as every other late model Honda with ABS and none of the associated black boxes of the C-ABS system.
 
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Yes, we did this with a 2018 DCT when I worked at the dealership. The brakes aren't linked front to rear, rear to front, or at all. This is an old topic rehashed. Who knows why Honda doesn't change the website. They did change it from linked to "2 Channel ABS" with DCT models at some point. I didn't bother to look it up today, I did all this in the past, and talked to our Honda technical rep about it last year.

For several years about 10 years ago Honda did build an an electronic C-ABS system on the 600cc supersport and liter bikes. If the 700/750s had it there would be a two motor control units, one for each wheel, two wheel valve units and a dedicated electronic control unit for each wheel. The 700/750s have similar ABS one-box modulators as every other late model Honda with ABS and none of the associated black boxes of the C-ABS system.

If they are linked to redistribute brake pressure to the front brake in the event of applying too much rear brake to the point of locking up the wheel, you won't be able to measure whether that works or not in a shop. You would have to get going down the road and hammer on the rear brake to see of the front dives any from abs applying front brake pressure, because the system would need to detect a slippage of the rear tire while the front tire is still traveling at speed.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't believe Honda would write that the NC'S have linked ABS systems if they actually did not. I'm sure they know their product much better than that. Although they did not spellcheck the specs titles. Lol

It also states that they are linked "rear-to-front" which would mean they are only linked in the event of over-application of the rear brake, and that the front brakes are stand alone. Which is opposite what I expected.

Images/text from Honda Powersports website regarding the 19 NC750X.

266485f8a6e05449eed621100a76fe28.jpg


964a2195656614966382cbe212b721c4.jpg


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Oops, it's clear now that my idea of the linked system always having a 3-pot front caliper fed via two brake hoses is old school and Honda has developed another method to do the same task using a 2-pot front caliper with single hose. :)
 
Oops, it's clear now that my idea of the linked system always having a 3-pot front caliper fed via two brake hoses is old school and Honda has developed another method to do the same task using a 2-pot front caliper with single hose. :)
Yes, Honda did this in certain MY 2009 production models and the necessary components of Electronic C-ABS are not included on NC700/750XD ABS models. Unless of course you find them in parts lists. :)
 
Yes, Honda did this in certain MY 2009 production models and the necessary components of Electronic C-ABS are not included on NC700/750XD ABS models. Unless of course you find them in parts lists. :)
Are you still sticking to the theory that the NC does not have an ABS system that is linked in the least bit? I want facts lol. Wish there was more literature on the matter.

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