Air bags?

[TheIronWarrior]

For helmets, I don't give a fig for ECE stickers BECAUSE I live in the USA. The helmets marketed here are rarely to never actually the same thing as what's marketed in Europe (ask any or all of the helmet manufacturers about that, including Arai, Bell, and Shoei), and there's neither compliance nor enforcement testing by ECE authorities here. So, that makes that sticker worth even less to me than the DOT sticker, because at least DOT does _some_ tiny amount of compliance testing. That's also why, to my chagrin, I can't really pay much attention to SHARP's testing. They do great work, but the helmets they test are physically different designs than what's available to me in the USA.

For clarity, you are telling me that the helmet I have, which has both DOT and ECE labels (actual ECE label sewed in to the strap padding, not just the sticker on back) is perhaps NOT ECE rated? I feel like major manufacturers would NOT label an item with a certification that did not apply to that particular item, but maybe I'm missing something. I imagine there would be legal implications for affixing a label claiming a certification that the item has not met, and a reputable company that dealt with both certifications would be unlikely to mess around with that.

I would agree that you could have two "sub-versions" of a "HelmetManufacturer ModelName" helmet, one for sale under DOT and one under ECE, but in that case I would expect the DOT helmet to NOT have the ECE tag on it, and vice versa.

 

[MZ5]

I believe I meant to say exactly what I said, which was:

For helmets, I don't give a fig for ECE stickers BECAUSE I live in the USA. The helmets marketed here are rarely to never actually the same thing as what's marketed in Europe (ask any or all of the helmet manufacturers about that, including Arai, Bell, and Shoei), and there's neither compliance nor enforcement testing by ECE authorities here. So, that makes that sticker worth even less to me than the DOT sticker, because at least DOT does _some_ tiny amount of compliance testing. That's also why, to my chagrin, I can't really pay much attention to SHARP's testing. They do great work, but the helmets they test are physically different designs than what's available to me in the USA.

 

[TheIronWarrior]

I believe I meant to say exactly what I said, which was:

I know what you said, I'm just asking for clarity. I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I am honestly asking for clarification.
My interpretation of what you said was "North American helmets, even with all the proper ECE tagging, are most (or even all) not actually ECE rated. Is this correct, or did I misinterpret?
And then I offered my completely unfounded opinion that my expectation is that manufacturers wouldn't label helmets with certifications they have not been granted. I'm not talking advertisements or descriptions on websites, I'm talking all the actual proper legal required tagging.

To note, my skepticism is coming from the fact that I know of at least one manufacturer that markets helmets as DOT, ECE, and PSC (Japan) rated, but specify that only helmets sold in Japan come with PSC labels. Based on that, I am inferring that the helmets sold OUTSIDE of Japan are not confirmed to be PSC rated, as they are not labeled as such.
To further support my skepticism, in most (if not all) provinces in Canada, ECE is an accepted standard. I can legally ride around in my province with a NON-DOT, YES-ECE helmet. Where the ECE rating is accepted, I am expecting there is at least a small effort made to ensure anything labeled as ECE is actually ECE. Maybe it's not as applicable to the US where DOT is really the only accepted legal standard, but I can't imagine the Canadian helmet market being that far removed from the US helmet marked that we would have to validate ECE ratings but you wouldn't, but I'm certainly not an expert.

Again, not trying to say that you're wrong at all, as it sounds like you have some more information than I have, and my OPINIONS (which is all they are) are based mostly on my own personal understanding and logic, neither of which are infallible. I just feel like if I was in charge of ECE ratings, and I knew a company was labeling something as ECE rated that was not, I would at the very least refuse to certify any of their products.

For clarity, in my OPINION:
Advertising a certain model as "DOT and ECE" on a webpage, when in reality there are two different sub-models, one for each standard - shady, but not strictly a problem
Labeling a certain model with all legal required labels as "DOT and ECE" when in reality there are two different sub-models, one for each standard - definitely a problem

 

[Wheelee]

I've never winged a deer or moose myself, but live deer ready to bolt out, as well as deer carcasses, on the side of the highway are an extremely common sight around here. I've had to emergency brake/swerve to miss deer on many occasions. I had a friend driving a truck get hit by a deer. He did not hit the deer, the deer hit him. The impact was behind the rear wheels. They are so flighty, unpredictable, and stupid. A very dangerous combination.

I actually lost an uncle several years ago due to a moose collision. He worked at the CAN/US border between New Brunswick and Maine and didn't make it home after shift one night.
The worst part about moose collisions is the beasts are so large that if you have a moderately sized vehicle or smaller, when you hit them the damn thing basically comes right through the windshield and lands on top of the front seats (and associated occupants). Doesn't help that they are fearless and aggressive, too.

I live in Ireland so we don’t have moose or elk but have deer, cows and sheep. I have unlucky enough to hit a cow and a sheep. The sheep did more damage than the cow, but the cow hurt more.

 

[MZ5]

The ECE-labeled helmets aren’t checked by ECE if they’re made for ‘overseas’ markets (using the EC as ‘home’ in this reference). That alone makes the label worth nothing, to me, because there isn’t even the post-sale compliance testing that DOT does.

That combined with the fact that the helmets themselves are commonly physically different items here vs there (remember that DOT standards don’t have to be met for EC ‘home’ market lids) and I can’t assign any value whatever to an ECE label on a helmet here. The best it could possibly mean is that the helmet manufacturer says the helmet will transmit no more than the ECE force limit when impacted on one of the few ECE-defined points. However, it costs them money to actually test, and they don’t need to test on the non-EC helmets, so one may reasonably infer that they make estimates.

A helmet CAN meet both standards; quite easily if it’s genuinely DOT-compliant. But you’ve no assurance it’s even been tested in-house, let alone by ECE. A helmet can even be 3-way compliant (ECE 22-05 + DOT + Snell), though almost the entire industry whines that they can’t. A couple companies had 3-way certified helmets, but I don’t know whether they ever marketed them as such.

I’m not sure what we’ll see here as the new ECE 22-06 standard comes into effect over the next several years. I bet marketers will continue to apply ECE to our helmets. No idea whether they’ll actually be compliant with both standards, since there’s no enforcement and no compliance checking.

 

[melensdad]

It is easy to buy ECE 22-05 products made for ECE nations, and shipped to the US.

When the new ECE 22-06 comes into effect it is not very likely that we will see dual or triple certified helmets as the proposed 22-06 standard seems to require what the DOT standard does not allow, and visa versa, at least in terms of helmet shell flex. I'm not sure I have a full understanding of the two standards but from what I can tell the upcoming -06 standard will deviate enough from the DOT that it will not be practical/possible to meet both standards. Snell seems to be bifurcating their standard to allow for 1 certification for DOT and another for the ECE standard.

All that said, we seem to have deviated away from the AIR BAG thread into a HELMET discussion.

Perhaps we could all return to an AIR BAG discussion?

 

[LearnedButt]

Fulmer has actually been around for a couple of generations and is a US company though I’m sure production is offshore these days.

Huh. It turns out Fulmer is one of the older brands of Helmet makers, that was family owned from 1969 to 2015, when they got bought out by BCS International, inc. BCS International looks like a generic manufacturer - making everything from helmets to carpet cleaning supplies.

Kind of disappointing when you get an older brand and some corporation buys up the company. In very few cases, like the long saga of Royal Enfield (which is a really interesting read), it works out fantastically well (I'm eying the continental GT as a second bike), but most often, you get the Bain Capital types who go in, fire everyone, change what made a product great into something crappy in order to milk as much as they can off the brand's goodwill before it dies.

 

[MZ5]

When the new ECE 22-06 comes into effect it is not very likely that we will see dual or triple certified helmets as the proposed 22-06 standard seems to require what the DOT standard does not allow, and visa versa, at least in terms of helmet shell flex. I'm not sure I have a full understanding of the two standards but from what I can tell the upcoming -06 standard will deviate enough from the DOT that it will not be practical/possible to meet both standards.

Not at all. There’s a triple-certified helmet available in the US right now from LS2. M2020R, which essentially covers ECE 22-06, plus DOT. Snell tests properly and well so no worries of LS2 gaming that standard.

2020R + 2020D can’t happen, but ECE is merely (slowly) catching up on protection, so not tough to also meet their newest. FIM is where the forced incompatibility will come from.

 

[The Phoenix]

For those of you who are still interested in the Helite e-Turtle Airbag vest you might be interested that they have opened for (pre) sales.
Here's the link to the page:

Motorcycle Airbags - Electronic Airbag Options - Helite Moto

www.helitemoto.com

 

[mzflorida]

100% agree

If it is DOT approved it is a joke. DOT allows self certification, which is how the brain buckets get DOT stickers. The manufacturer doesn't test it at all, they sell is, claiming they built it to the theoretical standard, do 1 or 2 production runs, sell out their inventory, and its gone before its ever tested. Then they change is about a millimeter and do it again as a new model.

This was extremely informative. I had no idea. I really thought it would have been more like UL certs. Appreciate this.

 

[dduelin]

This was extremely informative. I had no idea. I really thought it would have been more like UL certs. Appreciate this.

It's actually a little more regulated than that under various sections of US law. Importers, domestic manufacturers, retailers, or any entity even "introducing" non compliant DOT helmets marked as such into US commerce are liable to fines of up to $5,000 per helmet. If the NHSTA starts sniffing around the entity and they are not answering requests for information related to an investigation of non-compliant helmets the fine is $5,000 per day. If a manufacturer is held liable to repeated violations the fine is hefty but limited to $16 million USD. Each helmet is a separate violation.

We aren't talking illicit drugs here where the product is small in size and high in worth and the smuggler's trail is hard to follow. For smuggling illegal helmets someone of record imports the helmets, someone of record wholesales them, and someone of record retails them at huge financial risk for the gain of $50 a brain bucket. If you buy a reputable brand from a reputable dealer they aren't selling helmets that don't meet the DOT standard which is codified into US law under FMVSS 218 and CFR Title 49.

 

[melensdad]

It's actually a little more regulated than that under various sections of US law. Importers, domestic manufacturers, retailers, or any entity . . .

This is all true but there are so many fly-by-night helmet manufacturers that, for all practical purposes, are making fake helmets, selling them out, and then changing them slightly, coming back under a different name, and all with DOT stickers on them. You can see their advertisements all over the internet. Facebook and other places are full of those advertisements in the summer months. Advertising them as the lightest DOT certified helmets available. Suggesting they offer protections, etc.

What is the law, on the books, and what is actually sold, in the marketplace, are often very very different things.

And that doesn't even account for counterfeit helmets.

 

[dduelin]

This is all true but there are so many fly-by-night helmet manufacturers that, for all practical purposes, are making fake helmets, selling them out, and then changing them slightly, coming back under a different name, and all with DOT stickers on them. You can see their advertisements all over the internet. Facebook and other places are full of those advertisements in the summer months. Advertising them as the lightest DOT certified helmets available. Suggesting they offer protections, etc.

What is the law, on the books, and what is actually sold, in the marketplace, are often very very different things.

And that doesn't even account for counterfeit helmets.

Buy from those places and you'll get what you pay for. Do you put your head in a $50 helmet sold on Facebook?

Just in case you do: "If you buy a reputable brand from a reputable dealer they aren't selling helmets that don't meet the DOT standard which is codified into US law under FMVSS 218 and CFR Title 49".

 

[melensdad]

Buy from those places and you'll get what you pay for. Do you put your head in a $50 helmet sold on Facebook?

Just in case you do: "If you buy a reputable brand from a reputable dealer they aren't selling helmets that don't meet the DOT standard which is codified into US law under FMVSS 218 and CFR Title 49".

A shockingly high number of people apparently DO buy from these places.

Look at home many "likes" and positive comments they get.



There is a sucker born every minute.

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[dduelin]

A shockingly high number of people apparently DO buy from these places.

Look at home many "likes" and positive comments they get.



There is a sucker born every minute.

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.
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That’s why it’s called fakebook.

I suppose those buying $50 helmets honestly only have only $50 or might be keeping a wife, mother, or girlfriend happy and don’t really care what they are getting. It comes off as soon as they turn a corner.

Do you have a point here? A few posts back you stated DOT certification was a joke when it clearly isn’t. Even what you suspect are uncertified helmets sold on FB are placing the manufacturers, importers, wholesalers & retailers at great financial risk for little return. If the sticker is fake it could just as well be a fake Snell or ECE sticker on a counterfeit helmet.

 

[davidc83]

I actually wear a $50 DOT helmet from Walmart. I have a few helmets and it is my favorite.....full face modular, internal drop down shade shield, pinlock outer shield. It is lighter than my HJC, Scorpion, Bilt.....the vent slides are starting to wear out after 3 years and 40,000 miles. Time to start looking for a replacement. If it didn't meet the government's DOT specs, doubt if Wal-Mart would take the chance of $$$$$$$$$ fine.

 

[670cc]

Buy from those places and you'll get what you pay for. Do you put your head in a $50 helmet sold on Facebook?

Just in case you do: "If you buy a reputable brand from a reputable dealer they aren't selling helmets that don't meet the DOT standard which is codified into US law under FMVSS 218 and CFR Title 49".

Around my state, which has no helmet law and by my observations, very low helmet usage rates, $50 helmets on those heads, true DOT or not, would probably be better safety gear than the helmetless heads they're showing now. However, the law says they're free to choose, and it's not for me to say.

 

[Afan]

In case somebody is still interested in air-bags