ABS brakes should probably be a 'deal killer' on new street bikes

[670cc]

I have to think that studies like the one referenced in the OP account for confounding factors like you describe. In the case of two wheels on ice and two on dry pavement and a multiplexing 2 or 4 channel ABS the two wheels with good traction would brake to the point just short of lock up wouldn't they? The amount of braking pressure applied by the leg and foot wouldn't match the deceleration rate and it might feel like the van isn't braking at all when it actually is.

It seems to work this way with ABS motorcycles I've owned. If the rear brake is over applied all you feel is the foot pedal tremble or vibration but the bike is braking and decelerating rapidly due to weight transfer to the front tire but when the front wheel ABS kicks in you do feel like no brakes are applied at all.

Vehicle in the example I gave is a 2013 Dodge Grand Caravan. If total wheel slip is detected on one side, antilock is applied to both sides. Otherwise the van would tend to go into a skid and spin because one side is braking and the other is not. Since anti-lock pulsing occurs on all tires if one track happens to be on polished ice, which has basically no friction at all, the result is esentially no braking whatsover. The traction that is available on the other 2 tires on dry road is not utilized. Antilock seems to be designed with the primary function of keeping the vehicle going straight, sometimes at the expense of quicker stopping. If I could turn off ABS for winter driving, (at least in that vehicle), I probably would. Since learning to drive as teenagers, we had plenty of (intentional) experience sliding cars on snow and ice, and keeping them under control.

Of course, none of this applies to motorcycles since they are single track vehicles. They only reason I brought it up was in response to TacomaJD's post.

 

[LearnedButt]

I think ABS is a great safety feature, and I would opt for it if I could, but I did not want a DCT bike, so for the (UW-market) 2013 model year, I had no choice.

Same here. I know many here love their DCTs, but I really like shifting. It's part of the experience. To each their own, no judgment either way. I was disappointed that I couldn't get ABS, and it's not like ABS needs the DCT to work. No reason it should have been omitted.

 

[potter0o]

In emergency braking practice with a motorcycle I have seen proper braking technique exceed abs panic braking. Loading contact patch etc... That being said I think the combination is best. Practice and skill development combined with technology.

 

[Doc True]

In emergency braking practice with a motorcycle I have seen proper braking technique exceed abs panic braking. Loading contact patch etc... That being said I think the combination is best. Practice and skill development combined with technology.

I have no doubt that a professional or highly skilled rider can out brake ABS under controlled conditions. I don't think it applies to street conditions though. By definition, most of us possess average riding skills. The benefits of ABS come from panic situations when we're surprised and not performing at our best. Having ABS is no different from wearing a helmet or abrasive resistant clothing

 

[melensdad]

I have no doubt that a professional or highly skilled rider can out brake ABS under controlled conditions. I don't think it applies to street conditions though. By definition, most of us possess average riding skills. The benefits of ABS come from panic situations when we're surprised and not performing at our best. Having ABS is no different from wearing a helmet or abrasive resistant clothing

Exactly my thoughts.

I wouldn't doubt that some highly practiced professional rider can, under some conditions, maintain control of his bike (not fall) and simultaneously stop his bike (without impacting a solid object) faster than an ABS equipped bike. But I'd also argue that the vast majority of riders cannot do that.

As a coach we practice, very repetitively, specific moves, because we know that under duress our athletes will default to their basic training. Same is going to apply to other aspects in our life. If I'm not practicing panic stops almost daily, week after week, for years, then it is highly unlikely that I could ever out perform ABS.

I would also note one other point, ABS has evolved and gotten much better. We have a couple anecdotal stories in this thread about dissatisfaction with ABS and those were in vehicles that are 2010 and 2013 model years, so both are relatively older vehicles, and probably are using older generations of ABS, which likely have been refined.

ABS may not always stop someone in a SHORTER distance, but it is designed to stop someone while maintaining control of the vehicle, in the case of this thread, a 2 wheel motorcycle. And controlling a motorcycle is different than controlling a car. Locking up the brakes, even briefly, on a bike, at medium and high speed, on asphalt, often results in complete loss of control, skids and crashes. A high percentage of motorcycle accidents are single vehicle crashes, involving speed, with the biker losing control and skidding.

 

[LearnedButt]

While it's true, a professional could use proper technique to match or perhaps exceed ABS, the situation it's meant for is us non-professionals saying:

OHFUCKOHFUCKOHFUCKOHFUCKOHFUCKMINIVANJUSTPULLEDOUTFUCK! *smash*

When the shit hits the fan, the first to go is rational thought. That's why the military trains so hard-- so when the bullets fly, they don't have to think.

 

[TheIronWarrior]

While it's true, a professional could use proper technique to match or perhaps exceed ABS, the situation it's meant for is us non-professionals saying:

OHFUCKOHFUCKOHFUCKOHFUCKOHFUCKMINIVANJUSTPULLEDOUTFUCK! *smash*

When the shit hits the fan, the first to go is rational thought. That's why the military trains so hard-- so when the bullets fly, they don't have to think.

Not to mention, ABS might also save the rider's underwear from irreparable damage.

 

[Lomunchi]

Aren't ABS mandated in Europe?

 

[Doc True]

Aren't ABS mandated in Europe?

That's my understanding

 

[melensdad]

Aren't ABS mandated in Europe?

I believe they are mandated in both the UK and the EU nations.

They have also been standard in Canada on the NC for a few model years, not sure if that means they are mandated.

 

[Deleted member 1183]

Based on a new Insurance Institute for Highway Safety study, which heavily footnotes a bunch of prior studies, it sure looks like ABS brakes not only help newer riders but also help experienced riders. Further, it concludes ABS brakes not only reduce deaths, they reduce the severity of injuries and also reduce crashes. There is some data on motorcycles of the same model with and without ABS showing the feature is effective.

For me, one of the reasons I chose the NC700x in the first place was ABS, another was the DCT. To me the combination just seemed too good to pass up. For me, on a modern street motorcycle, especially a daily rider, ABS is a deal breaker.

The meat of the study is only 13 pages, worthy of effort it takes to read.

https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/bibliography/2236

I must admit that if I wanted a bike enough the lack of ABS would not stop me. However I do agree that it adds a level of safety to our riding. My first ABS bike was the first model GL1800. On that bike I never had cause to need the ABS. Just once, on my former Triumph Explorer I had cause to be thankful for ABS though. I came to a hidden junction on a sharp curve on a wet road and only spotted the stop sign in the bushes when I was about to cross the junction. I hit the brakes hard and felt the ABS come on. The bike came to a halt at the edge of the junction as a car came through.

 

[potter0o]

I believe they are mandated in both the UK and the EU nations.

They have also been standard in Canada on the NC for a few model years, not sure if that means they are mandated.

ABS is not mandated in Canada.

 

[LesC]

I know it’s late, but I’d like to chime in. I have been riding now for four years on three different bikes with ABS, and 2 years on a DCT with ABS an traction control. I practice a panic stop every time I ride after a month or so if not riding. With that said and about 50,000 miles in these past 4 years, I have never had the ABS or traction control engage, not even in the genuine panic stop. I have often wondered if I just wasn’t practicing my panic stops with enough panic
I have always used both front and rear brakes together, including on the older GoldWing’s with the inter-locked brake system. It is hard to break a good habit that I’ve had for 45 years. I am hoping I never have to experience what ABS or traction control take-over feels like. As for DCT riding, I still shift it when I feel like it. Although, on rapid acceleration - I cannot shift that fast on a manual shift. My hands and foot are not as fast as the DCT’s that I’ve riden.

 

[melensdad]

I know it’s late, but I’d like to chime in. I have been riding now for four years on three different bikes with ABS, and 2 years on a DCT with ABS an traction control. I practice a panic stop every time I ride after a month or so if not riding. With that said and about 50,000 miles in these past 4 years, I have never had the ABS or traction control engage, not even in the genuine panic stop. I have often wondered if I just wasn’t practicing my panic stops with enough panic
I have always used both front and rear brakes together, including on the older GoldWing’s with the inter-locked brake system. It is hard to break a good habit that I’ve had for 45 years. I am hoping I never have to experience what ABS or traction control take-over feels like. As for DCT riding, I still shift it when I feel like it. Although, on rapid acceleration - I cannot shift that fast on a manual shift. My hands and foot are not as fast as the DCT’s that I’ve riden.

I have panic stopped on my NC750x. Literally STOOD on my rear brake and full grab of the front brake as a deer jumped out at me. So close I could have grabbed its tail.

But I did not feel the pulse of the ABS.

My guess is that the pulse of the ABS is just faster and softer on the bike than it is on my Audis? I barely feel it on either of my Audi's but I do feel it pulse pretty significantly on my Nissan pick up. Less so on my VW Jetta, but still very noticeable. It may be that the brake and release modulation on the Honda is simply smoother than we normally feel on cars, perhaps it is faster?

Then again maybe in the panic of the moment I simply was unaware of the Honda's ABS modulation?

 

[TheIronWarrior]

I have panic stopped on my NC750x. Literally STOOD on my rear brake and full grab of the front brake as a deer jumped out at me. So close I could have grabbed its tail.

But I did not feel the pulse of the ABS.

My guess is that the pulse of the ABS is just faster and softer on the bike than it is on my Audis? I barely feel it on either of my Audi's but I do feel it pulse pretty significantly on my Nissan pick up. Less so on my VW Jetta, but still very noticeable. It may be that the brake and release modulation on the Honda is simply smoother than we normally feel on cars, perhaps it is faster?

Then again maybe in the panic of the moment I simply was unaware of the Honda's ABS modulation?

2012 NC700SA, once felt the ABS when a kid chased a basketball out in front of me on an unpaved road. Much milder than any car I've ever driven, but still noticeable.

 

[Oldbear]

Exactly my thoughts.

I wouldn't doubt that some highly practiced professional rider can, under some conditions, maintain control of his bike (not fall) and simultaneously stop his bike (without impacting a solid object) faster than an ABS equipped bike. But I'd also argue that the vast majority of riders cannot do that.

As a coach we practice, very repetitively, specific moves, because we know that under duress our athletes will default to their basic training. Same is going to apply to other aspects in our life. If I'm not practicing panic stops almost daily, week after week, for years, then it is highly unlikely that I could ever out perform ABS.

I would also note one other point, ABS has evolved and gotten much better. We have a couple anecdotal stories in this thread about dissatisfaction with ABS and those were in vehicles that are 2010 and 2013 model years, so both are relatively older vehicles, and probably are using older generations of ABS, which likely have been refined.

ABS may not always stop someone in a SHORTER distance, but it is designed to stop someone while maintaining control of the vehicle, in the case of this thread, a 2 wheel motorcycle. And controlling a motorcycle is different than controlling a car. Locking up the brakes, even briefly, on a bike, at medium and high speed, on asphalt, often results in complete loss of control, skids and crashes. A high percentage of motorcycle accidents are single vehicle crashes, involving speed, with the biker losing control and skidding.

Agree fully. Those who don’t like ABS on a bike have likely never had the thrill of a locked rear wheel at speed. If I really liked a bike w/o abs I’d buy it, BUT I greatly prefer having it…

 

[670cc]

I was looking at powersports.honda.com to see if any new products were released by Honda. The ‘22 Grom was prominently displayed. Looking at the details, I saw the Grom offered in four colors. In three of the color choices, you cannot also have ABS. If I want a yellow, black, or white Grom, for example, I can’t get ABS. So if I was buying a Grom, I’d probably end up buying a Grom without ABS if I preferred a certain color.

I don’t understand why Honda continues to package a safety feature as if it was a casual option only available in certain combinations. All the Groms, and perhaps all the street bikes, should be sold with ABS as standard equipment.

 

[MZ5]

670cc, you're experience with that Fiat (Chrysler) minivan is very strange and troubling to me. The behavior you describe is NOT 4-wheel ABS, and I've never personally driven a vehicle with (electronically-controlled) 4-wheel ABS that behaved that way. I have, though, 'tested' many vehicles over the years by driving off the edge of the pavement and slamming the brakes, to verify whether the 2 wheels with traction would still brake hard enough to slow the car significantly. I started doing this after an Acura salesman specifically told me to try it on a test-drive when the Acura name was fairly new.

I had no idea any of the auto manufacturers were now cheating in this way. It's disheartening and frankly makes me almost angry!

 

[670cc]

670cc, you're experience with that Fiat (Chrysler) minivan is very strange and troubling to me. The behavior you describe is NOT 4-wheel ABS, and I've never personally driven a vehicle with (electronically-controlled) 4-wheel ABS that behaved that way. I have, though, 'tested' many vehicles over the years by driving off the edge of the pavement and slamming the brakes, to verify whether the 2 wheels with traction would still brake hard enough to slow the car significantly. I started doing this after an Acura salesman specifically told me to try it on a test-drive when the Acura name was fairly new.

I had no idea any of the auto manufacturers were now cheating in this way. It's disheartening and frankly makes me almost angry!

When conditions are right this winter, I’ll try this test again with two more vehicles from different manufacturers. I don’t know if they all behave the same, but I’ll be interested in finding out.

 

[Poohstyx]

ABS is a useful feature, within its limits. In situations where there is very low traction or you need to lock up the back-end, it is worse than useless. When there is a choice, I will never buy a vehicle with rear ABS.