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Thread: Recently watched "Can I get More GRIP from a Wider Motorcycle Tyre?"

  1. #31
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    Here is Little River Canyon rim road 176. The red blip is where the road starts near the falls.






    And here, road 56 is a remote back country road with very little traffic, gets super curvy and very fun above where it says Sherwood.



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    Last edited by TacomaJD; 13th May 2019 at 17:14.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Recently watched "Can I get More GRIP from a Wider Motorcycle Tyre?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacomaJD View Post
    The other thing I am stuck on too is when I used to do trackdays, I began on Michelin Pilot Power 2CT's (aggressive street tire). It didn't take long before I was outriding that tire, it would overheat in just a few laps and get what they refer to as "greasy" and would spin up exiting corners hard. So I switched to DOT race tires of the same exact size (Dunlop D209GP and Michelin Power Race) as I began to move up into Intermediate class and onto Advanced class, the newfound grip was AAAAA-MAZING. Wish I had swapped to them early on. Unfortunately that grip would be the demise of my sportbike days as in between trackdays, I would swap out my race fairings and put the street fairings back on to go ride on the street with my friends. Sometimes, I was too lazy to put the Pilot Powers back on, and just rode on the street with the dot race tires. They are approved for the road, just not recommended under street conditions. I somehow went into a freak tank slap on the interstate while playing around with my friends, the extreme grip of the dot race tires amplified the tank slap to where it was super violent, no fixing it, ran up against the guardrail and kicked off into the woods breaking both legs with one having to be amputated below the knee. I 100% believe if I had been running my street tires, the tank slap would not have been near as violent and I could have corrected it and went about my day.

    Anyways, I think about grip of tires quite often, and I never really thought about "why" a race tire and street tire differ in grip physically, it's not so much grip as it is managing heat I guess? But wouldn't that only come into play when you are melting tires from riding so hard? Even running super sticky DOT tires, they look like they are melted all to pieces when you get done with a hard 20 minute track session, rubber balled up all over the tire, but they still grip extremely good whereas an aggressive street tire can melt and look the same but end up being "greasy" and not holding up as well entering and exiting corners. I know nobody here is melting tires on an NC, therefore if all the tires we are talking about are operating within their heat handling capabilities, does the same coefficient of friction equation apply in increased or decreased grip between narrower and wider tires? Or does that mean that say under normal riding, under the point of melting the tire, a 150mm rear tire is capable of gripping the same as the same tire in a 190mm? Heat management shouldn't matter if that is the case until the tire is pushed beyond it's limits right? Also going by that, we all know tires operate better with heat in them, which is why racers utilize tire warmers before hitting the track, so does that mean the narrower tire may heat up to operating temperature faster than the wider tire and since we aren't outriding that tire on NC's a narrower tire ends up being more advantageous than a wider tire in this specific application?

    This makes my head hurt. And I'm sure quickly typing all that may contain some incoherency or grammatical errors. So overlook it if any exists. Lol.
    We're getting into speculation on my part when it comes to why the front tire is skinnier than the rear. I would guess that it has to do with energy transfer. The engine force has to be transmitted through the carcass of the tire and no energy transfer is 100% efficient. My guess is that the excess energy is lost in heat and that the larger sized tire is needed to dissipate the heat. If we were just dealing with cornering forces, I see no reason for the offset tire sizes.
    "Roads are just a suggestion, like pants."

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc True View Post
    We're getting into speculation on my part when it comes to why the front tire is skinnier than the rear. I would guess that it has to do with energy transfer. The engine force has to be transmitted through the carcass of the tire and no energy transfer is 100% efficient. My guess is that the excess energy is lost in heat and that the larger sized tire is needed to dissipate the heat. If we were just dealing with cornering forces, I see no reason for the offset tire sizes.
    Haven't even thought about that, I was solely comparing rear tire size examples only. I think I will drop the topic now, although this has definitely sparked my interest enough that I won't stop thinking about it now. Lol good discussion!

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  4. #34
    Senior Member Recently watched "Can I get More GRIP from a Wider Motorcycle Tyre?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacomaJD View Post
    Haven't even thought about that, I was solely comparing rear tire size examples only. I think I will drop the topic now, although this has definitely sparked my interest enough that I won't stop thinking about it now. Lol good discussion!

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    You also have the added complication of is the front and rear tire the same compound of rubber

    Also, I know from watching MotoGP that they'll often put a different compounds on the left/right sides of the tire based on the number of left/right turns

    I bet it's fun to be a race tire engineer
    "Roads are just a suggestion, like pants."

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc True View Post
    You also have the added complication of is the front and rear tire the same compound of rubber

    Also, I know from watching MotoGP that they'll often put a different compounds on the left/right sides of the tire based on the number of left/right turns

    I bet it's fun to be a race tire engineer
    My guess would be:

    Front tire is skinny to help turn in faster. I've ridden various bikes with 120mm, 130mm, and 150mm front tires. Giant difference between them all with 120mm turning in the quickest, which is probably why 120mm front width seems to be the standard across more sporty type bikes, while rear tire width fluctuates in relation to the power each bike puts to the ground. Which makes for great evidence supporting the theory that a wider rear tire does improve grip when used with the correct width wheel and compared to the same model tire in a narrower size.

    Regarding compound, Michelin uses different compounds for the front and rear in their dual-compound technology tires. Rear tire gets harder compounds, I'm sure because it will heat up faster under engine load, and front tire gets softer compounds, because it is narrower and also under neutral load. This is interesting too because front tires usually outlast rears by a significant bit, even while having softer compounds. At this point, one could also infer that since narrower tires have less grip than wider tires, softer compounds are needed on the front tire to make it perform in parallel with the rear. LOL but who knows.


    Think this was a Pilot Road 4 chart.




    This one labels each tire.



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    Last edited by TacomaJD; 14th May 2019 at 06:54.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Recently watched "Can I get More GRIP from a Wider Motorcycle Tyre?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by dduelin View Post
    In the practical, stock tire sizes provide more grip than a rider can generally exceed. Anyone riding a track day can attest to this. Going to larger tire sizes adds little incremental grip and if the tire exceeds the recommended rim width it may even have less grip than stock or cause undesirable changes to steering geometry. Riders overwhelmingly crash from mistakes in cornering and braking technique not from lack of grip.

    Riding on the street should not be an exercise in ultimate grip and riders should stay well within a safety margin to account for other road users, pedestrians, critters, and loss of traction from street markings, debris on the surface, drains/manhole covers, etc..

    I enjoy the theoretical discussion as well as the next guy but just wanted to inject a little reality.
    even on a fairly low power bike, get ham fisted with the throttle and you can spin up the rear on corner exit no problem (or at least I can consistently do it on my WR450 supermoto, which puts mid 40s to the tire).
    12 NC700X
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
    even on a fairly low power bike, get ham fisted with the throttle and you can spin up the rear on corner exit no problem (or at least I can consistently do it on my WR450 supermoto, which puts mid 40s to the tire).
    Gearing on that bike probably helps put a little more powah to the wheels creating more tire spin-up torque. Lol

    Any idea what top speed in top gear is on it? Just curious.

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