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Lithium Battery?

StratTuner

StratTuner

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Dennis Kirk sent me a mailing today for Lithium batteries. They're certainly lighter. They seem to last longer and require less maint.
Anyone have any experience with Lithium batteries?
Thoughts?
HERE is the link for the Lithium battery for the NC700X (if I can trust Dennis Kirk's web site).

need I add... they are also more expensive.... but not twice as much!
 
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I know they sure are light weight. When you pick one up it just feels like an empty plastic case!

The OEM Yuasa is over a hundred bucks so the lithium price isn't terribly out of line if they last longer. Still, I get maybe 8 years out of lead acid batteries so that would be hard to beat.
 
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yes... IF they last longer... I wonder... the weight is NICE, but I don't think I'd get better mileage for a change in weight that small.... especially on a ride that already gets great MPG.
The charging speed increase is interesting...
 
LFP batteries is great technology with advantages and disadvantages.

* The usable capacity is about 80% (Pb [lead-acid] is only 50%)
* They're lightweight and smaller
* They're charging really fast at 4C and simpler (Pb at 0.5C [quick charging]). C=Battery Capacity (See Coulomb). This translates that you only need 10'-20' (minutes) to fully charge a LFP and about an hour for a Pb. The "simpler" goes to the less charge stages of the LFP: there is no absorption and float stages.
* Discharging is huge. They can release all of their charge in just a moment, so they're very strong!
* They've bigger life cycle: 1,000 to 5,000. Pb has 400-500 cycles
* They don't have the limitations of Peukert's law, i.e. almost no internal resistance (thus the big charge/discharge rates).
* They don't have sulfation problems
* Great self-life. You may leave them on the self for a year without charging!

Disadvantages?

* The big initial cost
* There is no standarization (like BCI, DIN, etc)
* Their capacity drops to 50% and more when cold (bellow 0°C / 32ºF) (but you can heat them)
* They're destroyed when undercharged (Voltage drop bellow 9V) or overcharged (the same applies to Pb too).
* The no sense PbAh & PbCCA equivalent rating of manufacturers.
* Not so much of a disadvantage but you can't get their State of Charge (SoC) using a simple voltmeter with only two digits. A voltmeter with high precision is needed - three digits, because the voltage of an LFP is almost flat (about 13.2V - one reason they're so much powerful!).

So in general they're ok over time because they can last too long and they're so powerful!

The problem is that all of the LFP manufacturers suggest an undersized battery using this arbitrary PbAh. An undersized battery will overcharge (remember 4C), will not be able to start the engine in cold, and not be enough to keep alive all the parasitic drain from various electronics (ECU, alarm, etc).

In cold you can warm up the battery by some discharge e.g. by turning on the lights for some time. But when you've an undersized battery there will be not enough juice to startup the engine.

About the overcharging... The max. charge rate is 4C. That means for example that an 4Ah battery can accept 4x4Ah = 16 A while the charging system will try to put much more amps!

To get less technical, how to choose the right LFP for your bike? Ignore completely PbAh & PbCCA ratings and look for the REAL amps. Put the largest LFP that can fit in the battery tray.

The specs for the NC is a 11Ah (10Hr) battery so you must look for a LFP with REAL Ah close enough to this.

How to get the real Ah? It's not so easy because they usually don't publish this info. One way to determine real amps is by using the weight (most of the cells used have the same weight to achieve a specific capacity) but this is another conversation...

I would suggest Antigravity batteries because they're quality batteries with carefully matched cells (to avoid balancing problems) or EarthX (those have a builtin BMS for protection and balancing).

Personally I chose a LFP (Ballistic EVO2 12 Cell with about 6.9Ah. It wasn't possible a better choice due to availability) because my AGMs don't last more than 2 years because of my daily short rides (10' to 20' in city traffic) and occasional charging with a maintainer didn't help. Sulfation destroyed them... In just 1 year they're at 50% of their initial capacity.

If you live in a cold climate it would be wise to stay with a good quality AGM.

Forgive my bad english! :)
 
There's been some extensive discussion and testing of Lithium batteries on the FJRForum. What kills them as an option for me is their cold weather starting problems. Yes, you might eventually get the bike started but it requires repeated attempts to warm up the battery. I don't think they are quite ready for Prime Time unless you only ride in warm weather and want to pay extra to save a little weight.
 
If weight reduction is a the goal...........empty the frunk and your wallet or next time order a single cheese instead of the double cheese with fries.:rolleyes:
 
As an example, Shorai suggests LFX18A4-BS12 with 18Ah and 2.31lbs / 1.05Kg.

BUT as I said before, it's not real 18Ah. With that weight in reallity it's about 6.9 to 7.5 Ah! (a 12 cell battery).

What we need is more (better) or less an 11Ah LFP battery, i.e. a 16 cell (9.2Ah) or 20 cell battery (11.5Ah).

I also forget to mention the most important: the R/R must working ok and within the output range an LFP needs: 13.6V to 14.4V. (little more e.g. 14.6 is acceptable).


Many LFP failures reported are caused by a faulty or incompatible R/R (NC's Shindengen R/R is ok!) and of course the small capacity (overcharging / undercharging). Some failures also caused by wrong chargers (Pb chargers with desulfation / recovery mode are overcharged them and kill them).


For me LFP was the way to go because I needed an AGM about every year or two... The battery installed in December 2013 and so far (~11 months) is in perfect state, like new! My old Yuasas lost 50% of their capacity in the same time.
 
I had a lithium battery on my 848 in MN. The big twin and cold weather was not a problem. Coldest I went out for a ride was about 40F. The battery did need to warm up. I turn the bike on which start running battery current to lights and instruments, put on my jacket, helmet & gloves, then start the bike. Usually worked first time.
 
I'm an IT man (System Administrator, currently unemployed). In general I like to know how things are working not just using them. So I'm reading a lot... Some people are reading literature, I'm reading manuals and tech. articles!
 
In all cases if you use a Battery Tender when the bike is not used for several days and in storage it will last for years. These can be purchased for about $40 in Canada. The one I use is "Battery Tender Jr.", Google it and locate a source, most MC shops and Canadian Tire carry them.
 
Generally a battery maintainer will help in this scenario but not always as I said in previous posts... Occasionally charging didn't help either...

The rule is, a happy lead-acid battery is an always FULLY charged battery (OCV: 13.0V for a fresh AGM Yuasa, Varta, and others [Consult battery's manual for exact OCV]).

There are also some chargers / maintainers that may overcharge a battery, so it's wise to disconnect it when the battery is fully charged and disconnect the negative post / terminal to maintain the charge (there are parasitic drains). Battery Tender Jr. is one of them unless they fixed it in later models... Personally I prefer Optimates & Cteks.
 
I left my Battery Tender Jr connected to my former Honda Aero with a new battery all winter and everything was just fine come spring. I connected it to my NC700SAD all summer when not ridden for several days and now in storage. I feel very confident about using it now. My local Honda dealer now installs the connector for a battery tender on all the motorcycles they sell as part of PDI process and sells the Honda Tender at cost to insure batteries are good.
 
Given the size of the NC's stock battery, are you really gaining anything meaningful?

Pulled apart a dead Li-Po from an 18 volt power tool. 5 cells, heat sensors, computerized circuitry. There's a lot more than just a battery in there.
 
Good info in this thread.

Racebike runs Lithium batteries and a total loss system. the NC runs a regular battery from Cyclegear which has a 5 year warranty and as it starts to get weak I just return it and get a new one for free. Simple.
 
Lithium Polymer batteries, use different chemistries like LiCoO2. They've much more energy density thatn LiFePO4, but they're very sensitive to charging and a BMS is absolutely necessary to avoid thermal runaway (i.e. fire & explosion) as you know from some cell phone, laptop cases...

LiFePO4 chemistry has much lower energy density than the other members of LiOn family but they're very stable and a BMS is not needed.
 
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