Dragging in first gear

[xcruiser]

Hi folks. New owner of a 2013 nc700x and new member on this forum. I notice when I pull the clutch while coasting to a stop in first gear there is a drag on the motorcycle. At first I thought it was the brakes dragging but the rotors are cool. I don't notice it while drifting in second or third but first definitely has a drag. Any ideas on what this could be?

 

[DirtFlier]

Is the clutch freeplay adjusted correctly?

 

[Jt105]

Is the “drag” trying to slow you down while coasting? Or is it trying to pull forward when stopped?

JT

 

[xcruiser]

The drag slows the bike. No foreward pull at stops. Clutch free play is ample. Also hard to find neutral. Jumps from 1 to 2 & 2 to 1 like the clutch is not disengaging fully but there is not "that" much freeplay. Otherwise shifts fine.

 

[Jt105]

Have you tried spinning the wheel by hand?
#1 - Turn off the engine. For safety, don’t mess around with the engine running.

Put the bike on the center stand and manually rotate the rear tire in neutral.
Then have a friend hold the clutch while you shift into 1st and manually rotate the rear tire.
Do this in different gears. What does the ‘drag’ feel like in different gears? Do you hear any strange sounds?

When ‘in gear’ you will be spinning the internal transmission. It will spin the internals faster when in 1st (largest gear reduction) and should have a little more drag than 2nd gear or higher.

At what speed do you downshift into 1st gear? Typically for me it is below 5 or 10 mph. At that point I don’t feel much drag at all. If you are going faster than that, you will really be spinning those transmission gears and clutch plates at high speeds and that could cause more drag.

JT

 

[New Commuter700]

I agree with Jt, but I would add that if what is happening is you are dropping it into 1st from 40 mph you could do damage to your bike.

 

[670cc]

Has the chain tension been checked? I recommend setting it to the very loose end of spec. If a dealer made the chain adjustment, I'd assume they set it too tight. A tight chain (or even a bad rear wheel bearing) could cause some drag.

What viscosity oil is in the engine/transmission? Could it be too thick? Honda recommends 10w-30 or 10w-40. Does the problem improve when the oil is warmed up? Cold oil makes for more clutch drag.

 

[rippin209]

Has the chain tension been checked? I recommend setting it to the very loose end of spec. If a dealer made the chain adjustment, I'd assume they set it too tight. A tight chain (or a even bad rear wheel bearing) could cause some drag.

What viscosity oil is in the engine/transmission? Could it be too thick? Honda recommends 10w-30 or 10w-40. Does the problem improve when the oil is warmed up? Cold oil makes for more clutch drag.

Good recommendations being posted on here.
It seems like most problems posted on here are fixed by checking your battery connection or chain tension [emoji23]
It's funny but true.
Old, cold or too thick of oil does make a noticeable difference.

 

[showkey]

Agree with post #7 ...........other things to check:
Clutch free play ample ? Too much more than spec would cause poor disengagement. Same for aftermarket clutch lever or aftermarket fat grips.


New owner of 2013 ......used bike ? Mileage ?

 

[Deleted member 1183]

I am also in agreement with post 7 particularly in relation to oil viscosity.

 

[xcruiser]

Chain is not too tight. If i am in first at 5 or 10mph and pull clutch, i feel the drag so what speed i shift at is not relevent.
Things like chain anjustment & wheel bearings will effect all gears. This only happens in first. Previous owner used 15-40 but since this happens warm or cold I ruled oil viscosity out. And yet, It sure behaves like oil in transmission too thick (Clutch output/transmission input shaft & gear spinning faster in first than other gears). I will follow JT105's suggestion and observe different gears on center stand & report back. Been riding 47 years so not entirely clueless but I have never experienced this on any previous bikes I've owned..chain or shaft final drive and I've run 20/50 oil for many years in both.

2013 NC700X 5800 miles, all stock.

 

[670cc]

It appears you’ve bought a used bike. Do you have access to it’s history? Could the clutch have been serviced, and perhaps assembled wrong, or assembled using aftermarket parts?

 

[xcruiser]

Ok. The results of the center stand test w engine off:
OFF STAND:
1. Neutral w clutch released: Bike Pushes freely.
2. First w clutch pulled: Pushes hard.

ON CENTER STAND:
1. Neutral w clutch released: Wheel turns free.
2. First w clutch pulled: can't turn wheel.
3. Second w clutch pulled: Turns but hard.
Clutch arm on engine right side moves 1/2" when clutch pulled.
I can not turn the wheel fast enough to create a noise. Yes bike is used, no history. No witness marks indicating the clutch cover was ever removed.
This test supports what I am sensing while riding.

 

[Jt105]

Sounds like the clutch is not fully disengaging. Maybe there’s too much slack in the cable?
Can you turn the cable adjuster and try to tighten up the cable a lot more? Or move that lever on the engine case more to see if the clutch will open up? The lever on the engine should move the same amount as the gap on the clutch hand lever (where it pulls on the cable).

If not the cable, then something else is causing it to not fully open up. Maybe some warped clutch plates?

JT

 

[showkey]

Ruling out the oil is huge mistake........15-40 and 20-50 used in other bikes should never be used in the NC.

Warm or cold the oil is “way to thick”. The friction of that oil is enough to cause your symptoms.

So this might turn this thread into another dreaded oil discussion.

 

[670cc]

Ok. The results of the center stand test w engine off:
OFF STAND:
1. Neutral w clutch released: Bike Pushes freely.
2. First w clutch pulled: Pushes hard.

ON CENTER STAND:
1. Neutral w clutch released: Wheel turns free.
2. First w clutch pulled: can't turn wheel.
3. Second w clutch pulled: Turns but hard.
Clutch arm on engine right side moves 1/2" when clutch pulled.
I can not turn the wheel fast enough to create a noise. Yes bike is used, no history. No witness marks indicating the clutch cover was ever removed.
This test supports what I am sensing while riding.

My NC700X has 39k miles. Original clutch. With a stone cold engine, my off-stand behavior is identical to yours, yet I have no symptoms of drag while riding as you describe. As for the on-stand tests, I’ve never tried step #2 or 3, but what you observed is what I would expect. I don’t think this test tells us much.

If anything other than 10w-30 or 10w-40 motorcycle specific oil is installed, all bets are off. I agree with post #15. I don’t see the logic in installing an oil with higher viscosity than what is recommended by the manufacturer for this engine/clutch/transmission.

At this point I’d say install the recommended oil viscosity, and/or pull the clutch and inspect/replace the plates and springs as needed per the service manual’s inspection criteria. You may have warped plates.

 

[Deleted member 1183]

How long was the bike lying up after initial usage in 2013 ? Unless there is a previously unknown clutch issue then I can only think of cable adjustment and oil viscosity. I agree that using anything other than 10/40 10/30 in a Honda is a no no.

Perhaps take all of the slack out of the cable and try the test again ? Is the clutch lever pull on the stiff side, albeit it shouldn't be with such low mileage ?

other than the above I can only think of plate deterioration during a long period of lay up.

 

[xcruiser]

Yeah, don't want another oil discussion..however when warm, 15-40 is well within the Honda viscosity spec plus the radical difference between free turn and not being able to turn the wheel in first without the inertia of the bike pushing it doesn't feel like oil. This is why I ruled it out. Also If oil related I should see a difference between hot & cold.

I somehow cant accept that the clutch plates are going to deteriorate from non-use. If so I'll be buying a k-mart brand next time..ha.

Clutch pull is normal and adjustment has had no effect on this. Interesting that 670cc is seeing the same off stand behavior. Could you do an on stand test?

A warped plate is an interesting thought. Seems unlikely given the low mileage and the pristine condition of the NC suggests it was not abused but I guess anything is possible. Seems like I should feel a push when in first, clutch pulled and reving engine. I do not. Since this dragging is not making the bike un-ridable I would wait untill it worsens before any disassembly and at that time replace the plates.
Not totally disagreeing with anyone here, just stating my thoughts. I think we have narrowed it down some. Does the 1/2 inch clutch activation lever travel seem about right? I dont want to wrench on it to see if it moves farther. I sure do appreciate all this great input!

 

[670cc]

Well, without it being stated specifically so far, I'm gathering that at this moment in time the engine contains 15w-40 oil. While we've already established that it is not the Honda recommended viscosity, we'll move on. The next question is whether the oil meets JASO T 903 standard MA, as recommended by Honda and many other motorcycle manufacturers. The MA spec has a lot to do with use in wet clutch applications. If the 15w-40 oil in the engine is perhaps an oil designed for automotive or Diesel applications, and perhaps does not meet the JASO MA spec, then again, all bets are off. Put the correct oil in the engine.

Clutch cable play is not rocket science. If you can reach down and wiggle the actuator lever on the clutch cover a little, you know the cable is not too tight. If the clutch engagement point is somewhere in the middle of the clutch lever travel, she's good. If you've ridden a long time, you know what it should feel like, and the NC is not any different than other bikes in that regard.

I agree that the likelyhood of you having warped clutch plates is very small. I once cooked a clutch on a second NC I have trying to get out of a mud hole. In the end, all it did was wear down the friction plates and caused slippage, not drag. I swapped the friction plates out and all was well after that.

 

[670cc]

While one might immediately poo-poo these next ideas, let's explore them anyway. Could someone in the past, in the course of changing the rear tire, have assembled the spacers on the rear axle in the wrong manner? Perhaps a spacer is missing, swapped, or there was a severe rear wheel misalignment during a chain adjustment. Also, it's very easy to install the rear brake caliper holder wrong, with the caliper bracket notch not being inserted over the swing arm locator pin. I know you said the brakes were cool, but even seasoned rider/mechanics have missed putting the caliper on correctly. Usually the result is banging when the caliper bracket moves around, or the rear brake hose pulling out of it’s clips, but I suppose it could cause some drag somehow.