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Thread: Front Brake Caliper Upgrade - Part Numbers?

  1. #11
    Senior Member Front Brake Caliper Upgrade - Part Numbers? Fuzzy's Avatar
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    I am a fan of the linked brakes on my NC. Glad I have a 2013 before they dropped them to save cost.
    Apply dog logic to life:
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggler View Post
    ...aware that 750x lacks combibrake and has 2 piston front caliper...
    Actually from 2014 brakes are not only simply combined, they are "combined plus", electronically controlled.
    NC ABS 2012-13 models, front and rear brakes calipers are separated (but in one body). Rear brake is acting on front wheel by separate caliper linked true proportional and differential valves. Practically it's uncontrolled action except when ABS action is required. New, electronically controlled system eliminates external valves. Distribution of braking fluid pressure to front and rear is done inside of ABS modulator and controlled by PCM. Honda claims improved braking and better control between front and rear, especially at low speed. I'm not sure if this is available for all models. Honda gives an example of super-bike. As usual, you have to pay for more advanced features, but in principal is the same.

  3. #13
    #1 Elite Front Brake Caliper Upgrade - Part Numbers?
    Front Brake Caliper Upgrade - Part Numbers?
    Beemerphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lootzyan View Post
    Honda claims improved braking and better control between front and rear, especially at low speed.
    Low speed on low traction surfaces is where simple combined braking gets the most iffy. At normal speeds on normally tractive surfaces it is fine. Honda may indeed have improved this with electronic control, however, when they went to the 2-piston caliper with less pad area they reduced the ultimate high speed braking power of the front wheel. It is a simple force x area equation regardless of how many electrons are scratching their heads trying to do the math. I'd rather accidentally skid the front with the rear brake on gravel at 3 miles per hour than to run out of time trying to haul it down from speed. If the accountants had been locked out of the conference room during the discussion, they could have added electronic control and kept the larger caliper.
    Last edited by Beemerphile; 22nd September 2015 at 15:03.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beemerphile View Post
    Low speed on low traction surfaces is where simple combined braking gets the most iffy. At normal speeds on normally tractive surfaces it is fine. Honda may indeed have improved this with electronic control, however, when they went to the 2-piston caliper with less pad area they reduced the ultimate high speed braking power of the front wheel. It is a simple force x area equation regardless of how many electrons are scratching their heads trying to do the math. I'd rather accidentally skid the front with the rear brake on gravel at 3 miles per hour than to run out of time trying to haul it down from speed. If the accountants had been locked out of the conference room during the discussion, they could have added electronic control and kept the larger caliper.
    I think that in 2012-13 ABS system pressure applied by foot brake to the front is almost insignificant compared to the force applied only by front brake lever and is about 1/3 of force applied to the rear. I think that Honda wanted to achieve better stabilization of braking when only rear brake was applied. Probably there were lot of complains about this system so they redesigned all idea.
    There is better explanation from Honda for new system:
    " Electronically Controlled Combined ABS allows riders to apply precise rear-wheel braking with the foot pedal. Application of the rear brake does not result in immediate front brake activation unless rear-wheel lockup is sensed, allowing an experienced rider to use the rear brake like a traditional non-linked unit during spirited riding such as track days for outstanding speed, suspension and steering control."
    And here:
    Honda Worldwide | Motorcycle Picture Book | Electronically Controlled Combined ABS

  5. #15
    Fixed Idea Front Brake Caliper Upgrade - Part Numbers?
    Front Brake Caliper Upgrade - Part Numbers?
    L.B.S.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beemerphile View Post
    I'd rather accidentally skid the front with the rear brake on gravel at 3 miles per hour than to run out of time trying to haul it down from speed.
    I don't mean to disagree with you, but I just spent all day yesterday trying not to kill myself or crash the bike every foot, going down miles of nasty steep downhill goat trails strewn with rocks, shale debris, snow, wet vegetation, mud, sand, and pea gravel.

    I am not a fan of the linked brake system at all! Ugh. Going slow enough that the ABS was off, unfortunately still kept the front linked and able to be locked up instantly with the rear brake pedal use alone. Going any faster that the ABS was on, meant bouncing down way too fast for control, and then not having very much braking when I did need to stop.

    I was a nervous wreck at the end, and I'm utterly knackered today from all the effort of yesterday lol. I have blisters on my palms from gripping the handle bars so tight. That's another first in my entire biking career!
    Chillin' with Cybersix and Data 7 in Meridiana

  6. #16
    #1 Elite Front Brake Caliper Upgrade - Part Numbers?
    Front Brake Caliper Upgrade - Part Numbers?
    Beemerphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.B.S. View Post
    I don't mean to disagree with you, but ...
    I doubt that we even disagree Lane. As bad as all of that was and as knackered as you are today, would you feel better or worse if instead you had pile-drived the rear of a car because you didn't have sufficient braking power to stop the motorcycle?

  7. #17
    #1 Elite Front Brake Caliper Upgrade - Part Numbers?
    Front Brake Caliper Upgrade - Part Numbers?
    Beemerphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lootzyan View Post
    I think that in 2012-13 ABS system pressure applied by foot brake to the front is almost insignificant compared to the force applied only by front brake lever and is about 1/3 of force applied to the rear.
    You completely missed my point. If the 3-piston caliper was retained using a single electronically controlled hydraulic circuit as in the 2014+ bikes, then the front braking power would be greater than it is with the 2-piston caliper that they instead utilized. For the reasons you mentioned (that the center piston controlled by the rear brake is not highly utilized because of the delay and proportioning valves) my non-ABS front brake using the ABS caliper produces better front braking power than the 2012-2013 ABS system that uses the same caliper because I can make full use of all three pistons. It also produces more front braking power than the 2014+ system with all of its newfound intelligence. It is brains vs. brawn. The 2014+ system piped like my bike could still have all of the electronic trickery to prevent issues like the one that drove L.B.S. crazy yesterday and more front braking power but they chose not to do it. That would have been brains plus brawn. More gooder.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beemerphile View Post
    You completely missed my point...
    I'm sure you right, I missed your point. That's why I need your help to figure it out.
    For your "manual" front braking you are using 3 piston caliper instead previous 2 piston system. The same pressure from master cylinder is divided now on 3 pistons evenly. So the pressure per piston is less by 17% (theoretically). But you gain braking surface area so, from good enough braking now you have excellent or better front braking. If I'd had both brake pads I'd calculate surface area difference with 1% accuracy (AutoCAD). You've got a point here.
    We are taking, however, about ABS system. Yes, in new 2-piston system brake pads are smaller, but is effectiveness of braking much less? For 3-pistons caliper front braking force is applied to 2 pistons, but not evenly on all surface like in your case. Because of brake pad deformation the braking force on a middle of pad is much less. Applying rear brake to activate 3-rd, middle piston would help little bit.
    I think that having 2-piston cylinder braking in new system is not much worse than 2 out of 3 pistons braking. But you still win with your front braking only in lab conditions (dry surface).

  9. #19
    #1 Elite Front Brake Caliper Upgrade - Part Numbers?
    Front Brake Caliper Upgrade - Part Numbers?
    Beemerphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lootzyan View Post
    I'm sure you right, I missed your point. That's why I need your help to figure it out.
    For your "manual" front braking you are using 3 piston caliper instead previous 2 piston system. The same pressure from master cylinder is divided now on 3 pistons evenly. So the pressure per piston is less by 17% (theoretically). But you gain braking surface area so, from good enough braking now you have excellent or better front braking. If I'd had both brake pads I'd calculate surface area difference with 1% accuracy (AutoCAD). You've got a point here.
    We are taking, however, about ABS system. Yes, in new 2-piston system brake pads are smaller, but is effectiveness of braking much less? For 3-pistons caliper front braking force is applied to 2 pistons, but not evenly on all surface like in your case. Because of brake pad deformation the braking force on a middle of pad is much less. Applying rear brake to activate 3-rd, middle piston would help little bit.
    I think that having 2-piston cylinder braking in new system is not much worse than 2 out of 3 pistons braking. But you still win with your front braking only in lab conditions (dry surface).
    We are getting there, but pressure is not "divided". Travel of the 14mm master cylinder increases proportionally to the increase in caliper piston area, but system hydraulic pressure is the same for the same lever force regardless of the piston area on the caliper. If 20 lbs, of hand pressure on the lever creates (hypothetically) 500 psi of hydraulic pressure in the hose with a 2-piston caliper, then it will still create 500 psi with a 3-piston caliper. It will simply have to move farther to build the pressure. The total braking force operating on the rotor will be the hydraulic pressure times the piston combined area. So, the total braking force will be greater with the 3-piston caliper by the ratio of the two piston areas.

    The 2012 ABS system did not make much use of the 3rd piston. The maximum front braking force with the 2012 ABS system was therefore only marginally greater than what the 2-piston non-ABS system could deliver. The maximum braking force of the 2014+ ABS system is the same as the non-ABS systems and marginally less than the 2012-2013 ABS system. My braking is significantly stronger than the stock 2-piston system. This improvement is not available to the 2012 ABS users unless they wanted to experiment with blocking the line from the ABS controller to the 3rd piston and joining the circuit to the front brake circuit. Not many people will want to experiment with this complicated life safety system, and it would not be me that recommended that they do so. However, those with either the 2-piston non-ABS caliper or the 2014+ ABS systems could easily do as I did and install the 3-piston caliper with both hydraulic circuits joined. This would have no impact on the 2014+ ABS operation.

    The only downside is that the caliper is very expensive. But less than the cost of 30 minutes in an Emergency Room.

    Peace.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Front Brake Caliper Upgrade - Part Numbers? dduelin's Avatar
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    In the real world non ABS riders have to be 100% on their game in these "stop in time or go to the emergency room" scenarios. This is on surfaces that might be less than ideal, in lighting less than ideal, with aging nerves and muscles that are less than ideal. Get it wrong less than 100% of the time and you may go to the emergency room anyway. Marginally less effective braking systems managed by head scratching electrons get it right 100% of the time, at least to the point of keeping the rider upright with options to the very end. Even if they take a few feet further to stop which is the better wager to lay your bet on?
    Dave

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