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Thread: DCT is NOT automatic transmission...

  1. #21
    Super Moderator DCT is NOT automatic transmission... 670cc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canbo View Post
    There are four types of transmissions: 1) manual, 2) automatic, 3) CVT and 4) semi-automatic and dual clutch. Therefore, a DCT is a type of semi-automatic transmission. It's a manual transmission fitted with two clutches.
    But wait. A CVT on a typical scooter is an automatic transmission. It has a clutch that engages and disengages automatically upon starting and stopping. It has a belt/pulley drive system that automatically varies the ratio between the engine output shaft and the rear wheel. That sounds fully automatic to me. CVT falls under the automatic “type.”

    The Honda DCT will engage and disengage the drive to the rear wheels automatically when starting and stopping. The transmission also automatically engages the gear set as needed for the proper ratio between the engine and rear wheel. It does all of this with no operator intervention. It sounds like it’s fully automatic to me, not semi automatic.

    If you define the DCT as “a manual transmission fitted with two clutches”, what defines that transmission as “manual?” Do people think because it has paired gear sets as opposed to planetary gears, that it’s a “manual?” If so, I don’t see how the gear arrangement defines a transmission as manual or not manual. What’s important is whether the transmission operates with or without a required interaction with the operator.
    Last edited by 670cc; 8th August 2019 at 07:59. Reason: Spelling
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  2. #22
    Senior Member anglachel's Avatar
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    My electric car is sold as being an automatic... but it never changes gears at all (even reverse is just the motor running backwards)

    Generally speaking I feel like the term "automatic" and "manual" refer to the intervention needed from the driver/rider.

    If you want to talk in terms of engineering there are clearly more descriptive terms... like CVT or DCT or Electro Hydraulic transmission... but most people aren't engineers, and even engineers just want to know if they know how to operate the vehicle...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 670cc View Post
    But wait. A CVT on a typical scooter is an automatic transmission. It has a clutch that engages and disengages automatically upon staring and stopping. It has a belt/pulley drive system that automatically varies the ratio between the engine output shaft and the rear wheel. That sounds fully automatic to me. CVT falls under the automatic “type.”

    The Honda DCT will engage and disengage the drive to the rear wheels automatically when starting and stopping. The transmission also automatically engages the gear set as needed for the proper ratio between the engine and rear wheel. It does all of this with no operator intervention. It sounds like it’s fully automatic to me, not semi automatic.

    If you define the DCT as “a manual transmission fitted with two clutches”, what defines that transmission as “manual?” Do people think because it has paired gear sets as opposed to planetary gears, that it’s a “manual?” If so, I don’t see how the gear arrangement defines a transmission as manual or not manual. What’s important is whether the transmission operates with or without a required interaction with the operator.
    We're not so different in thought, you and I.

    You are exactly right, user interaction is what defines automatic / manual. Just like a fully automatic firearm fires continuously with one pull of the trigger, and a semi automatic firearm fires once per every trigger pull. So, in D and S mode, the DCT is Automatic.....can't argue that, no matter if it changes gears and how it does it, it's automatic...twist gas and go. When in manual mode, since having an automatic clutch, using the paddle shifters it then becomes semi-automatic, because it changes a gear per each button push.

    I don't know how this can be so highly debated. The DCT trans is automatic with a semi-automatic option. Pretty simple, really.

  4. #24
    Senior Member DCT is NOT automatic transmission... Afan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lootzyan View Post
    ... i.e. eliminate AT/MT switch (leave it on AT mode), eliminate D-S mode switching, leave N-D mode and eliminate +/- shifting.
    And here you have it - a fully automatic motorcycle....
    Or... Eliminate D-S and M-T switches and leave +/- shifting. Now you HAVE to change gears by yourself, right? Does it still count as "automatic"?!?
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  5. #25
    Senior Member DCT is NOT automatic transmission... Afan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GgarryP View Post
    Wait, we're all correct. This debate is not about what it is, it's about what category you want to put it in. Categories can be defined in general terms or more specific terms.

    Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk
    Exactly my point. If it is "automatic", and a scooter is "automatic" too, does then NC/AT/... belong to the same group as scooters?!?
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  6. #26
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    Would you also classify an electric motorcycle as a scooter? Fully automatic. No engine and no transmission.

  7. #27
    Senior Member DCT is NOT automatic transmission... Afan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afan View Post
    Or... Eliminate D-S and M-T switches and leave +/- shifting. Now you HAVE to change gears by yourself, right? Does it still count as "automatic"?!?
    Or, let's say (it probably already exists, I don't know...) you have a bike where you don't need to pull the clutch lever to change a gear with your leg. Actually, let's imagine there is no clutch lever at all. Only "action" to change a gear is your leg movement up and down.
    Would it be considered automatic?

    I think my "problem" is actually not HOW the gearbox works and HOW is it engineered, rather HOW am I interacting with it. If I can change a gear to one I want (and that's how I ride my NC most of the time) then it's not automatic. If I can't change a gear, like scooters, then it IS automatic.

    In case someone thinks I have some kind of "compensating" issues and/or "automatic" is hitting my ego - I call my NC "red littl' scooter" because I find it funny.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member DCT is NOT automatic transmission... Afan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lootzyan View Post
    Would you also classify an electric motorcycle as a scooter? Fully automatic. No engine and no transmission.
    Ok, you're right. My logic is bad.
    I mean, gearwise it is "scooter-ish/moped-ish" because you don't change gears (there is no gears to be more precise), right? But my logic fails because to call a bike scooter there are other rules too...

    Please disregard my post #25!
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  9. #29
    Senior Member DCT is NOT automatic transmission...
    DCT is NOT automatic transmission...
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    Fascinating topic. This must drive Marketing Departments absolutely crazy.


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  10. #30
    Senior Member DCT is NOT automatic transmission...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afan View Post
    Or... Eliminate D-S and M-T switches and leave +/- shifting. Now you HAVE to change gears by yourself, right? Does it still count as "automatic"?!?
    In that case it's absolutely (to the user) automatic, even though it's a computer controlled manual.
    Quote Originally Posted by Afan View Post
    Or, let's say (it probably already exists, I don't know...) you have a bike where you don't need to pull the clutch lever to change a gear with your leg. Actually, let's imagine there is no clutch lever at all. Only "action" to change a gear is your leg movement up and down.
    Would it be considered automatic?

    I think my "problem" is actually not HOW the gearbox works and HOW is it engineered, rather HOW am I interacting with it. If I can change a gear to one I want (and that's how I ride my NC most of the time) then it's not automatic. If I can't change a gear, like scooters, then it IS automatic.

    In case someone thinks I have some kind of "compensating" issues and/or "automatic" is hitting my ego - I call my NC "red littl' scooter" because I find it funny.
    You can buy dirtbikes with auto clutches, and Rekluse makes auto clutches for most dirtbikes and a few streetbikes.

    If you have to manually shift, but not clutch, I'd call it a semi-automatic transmission. Or maybe just an auto clutch.
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