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Thread: Indecisive Newbie

  1. #11
    Member Juan_Banjovy's Avatar
    Bike: 2014 Honda NC700XE
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    If I rode in rain or had dual Brembo discs up front I wouldn't mind ABS but I'm a little leary of it. 2016 I crashed my car because it had ABS. On my way to work, road is dry & a few flakes of snow began to drop. Light turns red, everyone brakes & stops but me. I'm standing on the brake pedal of my 2009 Hyundai Accent then stomping on it & I roll right into the back of a Ford F-150 about 15 mph. ZERO braking power. Left & right lanes were taken, couldn't swerve. His truck was fine, not a scratch but it shattered all the plastic in my front end & buckled the hood up. Thank God it was a truck & not a smart car, motorcycle or pedestrian or I could be in jail & selling the house for a lawyer. I was about a mile from work & drove about 5 mph to the parking lot. Anyway, the NC700X got my interest in 2012 & was in the back of my mind ever since as my next bike. The time came, price was right & I'm very happy with it.
    Last edited by Juan_Banjovy; 19th July 2019 at 17:34.

  2. #12
    Junior Member Indecisive Newbie Dellaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 670cc View Post
    ...
    I think the transmission type will impact your day to day experience with the motorcycle more than the presence or lack of ABS will.
    I would definitely prefer that ABS or the lack thereof never have any effect on my life! It would be too exciting for my taste if I often needed it, or I often needed precise panic stop technique.

    My first real bike, the Suzuki 500 2-stroke, needed it once, or needed a more skillful rider. I slid it under the rear of a mini-pickup and bounced myself off the tailgate. My fault for not noticing the situation in time. Stuff happens when you’re not quite as good as a situation requires. Live (thankfully) and learn from it.

  3. #13
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dellaster View Post
    Is it not possible to disable ABS either by removing a fuse or disconnecting a wire?
    I'm sure it is, but I'm not interested enough in disabling it to mess with it. ABS is less intrusive on motorcycles than cars anyways, so it's not "as" big a deal. It's not like sliding the front tire on-road is a frequent thing, it's actually a huge thing to try to avoid LOL. I also can't imagine trucking down the highway at any speed and grabbing enough front brake in a panic over something to need ABS. One of the first things you should learn as a new rider is to NOT do that. It's not like it's something easy to forget about and do mistakenly (to me anyways), the consequences of panic-grabbing the front brake is obvious, that alone keeps me from grabbing too much regardless of the situation. It's just not in my fight or flight response to over-grab a handful of front brake because I know that it will not help whatever the situation may be.

    BUT.....I can see the benefits for some. Not everybody grew up riding and pushing limits of motorcycles. If you never push the limits, you aren't aware of capability or able to really predict feel in a panic situation. Big example there is how people go into curves too hot as a newbie, get scared, and stand it up either crossing into other lane or running offroad. 9 times out of 10, they could just keep on leaning and go right around the curve, as you really have to be getting with it to use all most sporty type bikes' lean angle and tire potential on the street. But if you don't know that, all you know is how it feels.....it feels scary, so they panic and stand it straight up ultimately crashing out.

    Sort of chased a rabbit with that, but to me, ABS is only a safeguard for inexperienced riders.

    Disclaimer: This is just my opinion, and my opinions are not always correct.
    Last edited by TacomaJD; 19th July 2019 at 17:42.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Indecisive Newbie ld_rider's Avatar
    Bike: 2014 Black ABS/DCT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy99CL View Post
    Why are they standard in the rest of the world but not here???
    Great question!

    The reason is most likely that the United States is one of the few developed countries without national medical care. Most of Europe and of course Canada require all larger motorcycles to be ABS equipped. Researchers in Sweden concluded that 42 percent of fatal accidents could be prevented with ABS. The Federal Research Institute of Germany says that the benefits of ABS are quote "undeniable". Those are some of the reasons you can buy an ABS equipped bike in those countries without having to pay for a DCT that you don't want.

    The Insurance Institute of Highway Safety estimates that about one-third of fatal motorcycle deaths could be prevented if ABS was required on motorcycles. I think if the United States was footing the medical bill for the 5,000 or so deaths and 1,000s of injuries a year on motorcycles ABS would be mandated and you could buy a NC700 w/ABS and no DCT in this country. Our northern neighbors can but you can't :-(

    One reason BMW and Harley Davidson are the go to motorcycle for law enforcement is because most departments require ABS (ex: NYPD, California Highway Patrol) most Harley models and BMWs (since 1988!) have ABS. Police departments are all about keeping their officers safe, and they know ABS helps.

    The NHTSA believes that there is insufficient proof that the benefits (less injuries/deaths) would outweigh the costs of mandating ABS. Note that the NHTSA doesn't dispute the fact that ABS equipped bikes are safer, just that the cost vs death/injury calculus is in favor of not mandating ABS.

    The bottom line? The countries that offer medical care to their citizens also mandate ABS (it saves them money) and countries that don't have national medical care don't mandate ABS.

    You can also generally tell when a country provides dental care: They have disposable toothbrushes and toothpaste in public restrooms. Cheaper than paying for a root canal ;-)

    None of this of course prevents a company like Honda from making ABS standard on all their middleweight and larger motorcycles and why they don't is beyond me. They can probably make more $$ by bundling ABS with options (like a DCT), forcing the American buyer to pony up more $$ for a transmission they don't want. Sad.
    Last edited by ld_rider; 19th July 2019 at 20:22.
    Rob in New England
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Indecisive Newbie ld_rider's Avatar
    Bike: 2014 Black ABS/DCT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juan_Banjovy View Post
    I'm standing on the brake pedal of my 2009 Hyundai Accent then stomping on it & I roll right into the back of a Ford F-150 about 15 mph. ZERO braking power.
    BTDT on my NC!!

    Was bombing along a gravel road at a pretty good clip during the 2015 Iron Butt Rally someplace in New Mexico when I saw a herd of wild horses off to my right. I glanced over to check them out and when my eyes returned to this gravel road in the middle of nowhere there as about an 8 inch high berm of fresh, loose gravel right in front of me. I grabbed the brakes to scrub off some speed and got up on the pegs before I hit it (50 mph or so) and.....Nothing!! Zip!! Nada!! It was a pucker moment for this pavement only boy when the itty-bitty front wheel hit the soft gravel and got all squirrelly on me. I still don't know I managed to keep it upright.

    Snow, or dirt/gravel and ABS do not mix!! Probably why many dual sports allow you to turn off ABS...
    Last edited by ld_rider; 19th July 2019 at 19:43.
    Rob in New England
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  6. #16
    Super Moderator Indecisive Newbie 670cc's Avatar
    Bike: NC700X, GL1800, KLX140G, CRF250L Rally, Ruckus 50
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    For automotive ABS, I observe that their design goal is to stop the vehicle straight, in control, but not necessarily stop it quickly. I can demonstrate this in my minivan anytime there is a strip of ice in one wheel track while the other wheel track is dry pavement. I can stand on the brake pedal, and I mean push the pedal to the floor, and there will be zero braking force applied. The ABS senses wheel lockup on the icy side, so it releases the brakes on both sides. Applying brakes only to the side with dry pavement would cause the van to veer off course in that direction. Since apparently we can’t allow that to happen, the ABS system decides it’s better to just not stop at all. However, without ABS, I could stop the van quickly because I have two tires on dry pavement and I can steer to counteract the sideways pull.

    Of course, this anomaly does not apply to single track motorcycle ABS systems.

    I ride pretty slowly, giving myself a wide safety margin. I don’t ride motorcycles on ice, and I have a lot of experience riding dirt bikes on dirt with no ABS, so while I’d love to have motorcycle ABS, it’s not high on my list of concerns.

    The real question is, if I’m a newbie and I have ABS, will I still be able to ”lay it down” to “avoid” an “accident”? Just kidding, of course!
    Last edited by 670cc; 20th July 2019 at 05:11.
    Greg
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  7. #17
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    I do think ABS is great for bikes and the stats prove it: 1. If the front locks up you almost always go down, period. So it's possibly crash or no crash. Obviously, it's not like a car where it only adds to stopping distance. 2. No matter how experienced, can you stop squeezing at exactly the right amount of braking force, no matter the conditions, no matter the surprise/threat, 100% of the time?

    Fifty years ago I learned to ride in the dirt and am still thankful; I rode for a couple of years before I ever got on the road.

    It is frustrating that Honda has other models with optional ABS but not our NCs. I checked a little while ago and found the Honda NC ABS modulator available for $986. Without the sensors, reluctor rings and other parts you'd need.

    Edit: I wonder if I could find a DCT owner who didn't want ABS and would swap parts???
    Last edited by Randy99CL; 19th July 2019 at 20:36.

  8. #18
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy99CL View Post
    I do think ABS is great for bikes and the stats prove it: 1. If the front locks up you almost always go down, period. So it's possibly crash or no crash. Obviously, it's not like a car where it only adds to stopping distance. 2. No matter how experienced, can you stop squeezing at exactly the right amount of braking force, no matter the conditions, no matter the surprise/threat, 100% of the time?

    Fifty years ago I learned to ride in the dirt and am still thankful; I rode for a couple of years before I ever got on the road.

    It is frustrating that Honda has other models with optional ABS but not our NCs. I checked a little while ago and found the Honda NC ABS modulator available for $986. Without the sensors, reluctor rings and other parts you'd need.

    Edit: I wonder if I could find a DCT owner who didn't want ABS and would swap parts???
    I am not positive but when emailing a member here about his experience changing sprockets on dct, this is what he said (below). Dct and ABS may have to work together electronically, but Idk for sure.




    As for #2, I am of the mindset that statistics of ABS testing to prove that its definitely a positive may circle around the sample population. If you test 99 noobs and 1 skilled rider, statistically, ABS will help the majority stop much faster/safer.

    There's many different scenarios that can cause panic situations, this can skew outcomes. Every panic situation doesn't allow for a good outcome, so sometimes it doesn't matter if you have ABS or not. If a 200 lb deer jumps out in front of you, ABS might make a 5 mph difference in the speed you hit the deer, if that. It's not going to miraculously save you from wrecking there.

    I used to dabble around doing stoppies and wheelies back in the day. Once you get a feel of what it takes to outbrake the rear end of a bike, you get a good feel of where that line is. You (anybody) can brake in a straight line as hard as you want, and you will be able to tell when you might be squeezing a little too hard. Anybody can do this, so long as you hold the bars straight. The front tire is not going to slide unless you are on wet pavement, debris is on the road, or you are running sucky tires.

    You don't have to be highly skilled to grab a lot of front brakes on non abs bike without crashing. Just seems like most of it stems from unnecessary paranoia. Go out and practice on a smooth backroad, get up to about 30 mph and see how hard/quickly you can stop your bike in complete control. Then 40 mph, 50mph, etc. I think familiarizing yourself with your bike's capabilities would provide much more safety than ABS...but that's just my opinion and nobody has to agree with that. Lol

    Superbikes do not run ABS, and nobody on this board wants to stop harder or faster than those guys. The later and more quickly you can brake, the faster your lap time will be. I love those close up videos of some of those guys on the brakes so hard going into a turn that the rear wheel floats a few inches off the ground over 1-200 feet, so much control over the bike. I know we aren't riding superbikes, just throwing that out there.

    The statistic claiming 42% of fatal bike crashes could have been avoided if the bikes had ABS is so far out there, I don't believe it could be anywhere near that number realistically. Think about it. Think about how many scenarios where brakes were not even a factor that could have prevented a wreck period. A lot of times when you screw up on the road to crash in a manner to get killed, sometimes brakes, no matter how good, aren't enough to save it. To say that 42% (thats nearly half) of the time "well, if they had ABS, they wouldn't have died" is kinda crazy to me. No?

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    Last edited by TacomaJD; 19th July 2019 at 23:33.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Indecisive Newbie
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    My experience is that few people work on developing themselves as a rider. I have taken some classes and seen the abilities of many riders. I totally appreciate the people that are investing in developing their skills but it makes me concerned about what the rest are doing. Ultimately it is my feeling that people invest in the machine but not the skill development.

  10. #20
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by potter0o View Post
    My experience is that few people work on developing themselves as a rider. I have taken some classes and seen the abilities of many riders. I totally appreciate the people that are investing in developing their skills but it makes me concerned about what the rest are doing. Ultimately it is my feeling that people invest in the machine but not the skill development.
    That sums up my thoughts on the matter very well.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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