Chain Research - 525 Upgrade Possibility

Second EDIT....After further research I did find a real-world instance of a 525 chain upgrade being done. It was done in the UK, by a Honda dealer, on a Honda Integra. The owner of the scoot was gracious enough to post the JT Sprocket part numbers right off his shop bill. Here is a shot of that bill:



In my research I had this and one other sprocket as the closest match to the NC's unusually thick center dimensions. The standard NC sprocket is 16.8 mm thick through the middle while this sprocket is slightly thicker at 17.5 mm. It will be interesting to see if I can live with the .7 mm of less thread depth on the sprocket retaining bolt or if I decide to grind of the excess. Worth the hassle if I do have to grind it imho. As implied I went ahead and ordered the sprockets and chain on Amazon (from JT apparently) and using the max-spec JT 525/120 link chain the whole kit was $148 delivered to the door. The JT chain is new to me but the specs are very good and I will be quick to toss it of I think it is the weak part of the kit.

I have too many bikes to rack up huge miles quickly but I should do at least 12K again this year on the NC, so this will probably be a long-term test. I will install everything as soon as they arrive and report back on that part.

Installed!

Cheers

I'v had a good experince with THIS chain (D.I.D Pro Street VX2). I've had three of them now and avg about 14K on each.
I've opted to change the sprockets every other chain, and that seems to work well.

That is a respected chain Strat but if I get less than 35K out of chain it is highly unusual. I probably over do the maintenance but I am so used to doing it I never notice. Chains really are not that expensive so 14K keeps it as a relatively low cost per mile item and the maintenance required to get that mileage is probably less time than I spend maintaining my shaft drive bike.

What if a 525 gave you 25K just as easily, would you try it?

I'd try anything that lasted longer... without stressing the drive mechanism beyond its design specs.
I know how to replace the chain and sprockets, but I really don't enjoy doing it.

How do you get 35K out of a chain? The D.I.D VX2 starts to have noticable "kinks" (stiff links) right around 14K.

I've considered flipping the chain.... that is, taking it off and putting what is now outside on the inside, but I've never heard of that being done. Kinda makes sense since the links are stiff / worn from bending in one direction all the time. Is the bend in the other direction worn out and stiff too?

I like your thinking keb. I've gotten ~19k out of my last two NC chains, which is not OK to me. I managed 50k+ on the OEM chain on my old Suzuki Bandit. I think the chain on the NC is undersized. If I hadn't just replaced the chain with yet another 520, I'd go for your 525 plan.

Someone do it! (or I will in about 16k more miles....)

trey

is it the larger scale (thickness, size) that gives the higher mileage?

I cant remember where I read it but chain wear on the nc has something to do with the 270deg crank causing strong pulses with high peak stresses. Glad for someone to confirm or deny
I've noticed ,apart from chain manufacturing quality issues, that keeping the chain on the slightly loose side SEEMS to make the chain stretch less quick.

You will often read that uneven, or spaced cylinder firing causes accelerated wear on drive chains but I have personally not found that to be the case. I had 3 V-twins (actually L-twins) that were no harder on chains than any of my other bikes. My first inclination is to suspect the NC's oem chain which was in pretty sorry shape brand new. However I have seen plenty of high performance bikes with 520 chain conversions go through drive systems in less than 10K miles. Not many people apply the maintenance program that I use so I have never know for sure if the smaller chains were to blame.

I suspect the chain manufacturers love selling the 520 conversion kits since it is really not in their best interest to build 50K mile chains/sprockets. In the world of the unprotected driven chain I suspect the more metal the longer the life span for a multitude of common sense reasons.

FWIW. My observations on the topic. My VStrom 1000 came with a 525 chain. When it wore out, I upgraded to a 530 DID Goldring chain that was fitment for a GSXR1000. That chain had 10,400ft/lbs of tensile strength and cost $172. The stock 525 lasted 25K kilometers and the new one lasted 35K kilometers. The 530 cost $50 more than stock, and was lubed with a dry lube. The original chain was lubed with Belray Super Clean, which attracted dirt, and I believe shortened it's life. I am now back to using an RK GXV 525 chain with 9300ft/lbs tensile strength, and cost $124.
When my NC chain wears out I will be replacing it with a premium 525 with a high tensile strength rating.
The drive sprocket on the NC can be flipped over with the wear side away from the chain. Doing this roughly half way through the anticipated chains life, could increase the mileage you get out of the chain.
Lugging the NC is hard on the chain...much like peddling a bicycle up a hill in high gear standing on the pedals. Higher rpm's distribute the power more evenly over more pulses and shock the chain less.

Hondafan said:

Lugging the NC is hard on the chain...much like peddling a bicycle up a hill in high gear standing on the pedals. Higher rpm's distribute the power more evenly over more pulses and shock the chain less.

Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
With all due respect.............Not buying any part of the above theory.

Showkey,
Maybe lie on the couch and think about it.
BTW. I bought a new XR250L in 93. Got talked into trading to a 96 250R....mistake. The 250L was a great dual sport and I wish I still had it.

[the maintenance required to get that mileage is probably less time than I spend maintaining my shaft drive bike...]

All three of my Honda road bikes prior to this NC had shaft drive. Other than changing the gear oil every two years and greasing the drive/driven splines at each tire change, there was NO maintenance. Now, if you're talking about a BMW that's valid!

YY

Hondafan said:

Lugging the NC is hard on the chain...much like peddling a bicycle up a hill in high gear standing on the pedals. Higher rpm's distribute the power more evenly over more pulses and shock the chain less.

Click to expand...

showkey said:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
With all due respect.............Not buying any part of the above theory.

Click to expand...

Hondafan said:

Showkey,
Maybe lie on the couch and think about it.

Click to expand...

I did think about it. I see where you're going with this in terms of shock loads to the final drive chain, but I think the bicycle analogy is not the best example. Two differences are:

1) The human standing on the pedals is not exactly analogous to an engine crankshaft's pulsing force. I agree that a pulsing power delivery from a lugging engine could impart more momentary force to the chain, but the human standing on the pedals would be a more constant force.
2) The chain in a multi speed bicycle is "inside" the transmission, not after it like on a motorcycle. It's essentially between the transmission input and output shaft. Being in different gears on a bicycle with front and rear dérailleur gears does change the force applied to the chain links. On a motorcycle, the chain is after the transmission. Regardless of the gear selected, if the motorcycle is accelerating at a given rate under power, the force on the chain will be the same.

Nonetheless, I'm with you on the idea that running the engine at higher RPM with impart less shock loads to the chain, although not really much with the NC700x

^^^^^^^^^^^^ agree

Most of the chain issues are not stretch issue........many of us have not needed to adjust the chain tension in 1000's and 1000's of miles. If the engine torque, over loading and drive train shock on the chain was not up to the NC design .....chain stretch would be an issue.

The issues that are common:
1.Kinky sticky links, likey cause oring failure allowing the factory lube to exit or dirt and water to enter the link. Oring damage can be caused by mechanical damage from excessive cleaning or poor design and or poor manufacture. The short life some have experienced might be stock oring chain might be of suspect quality ??????? BUT then there are other riders that have had no abnormal chain issues.
Lack of cleaning or too much lube or not enough lube can cause problems...... Washing the lube out of the sealed link will destroy the chain quickly.
Off paved road use.......dirt and dust makes sticky links. Excessive lube can attract dirt and dust making natures best grinding paste........even in city riding.

2. Chain tension too tight, this can damage the chain in just a few miles. ( also not good for counter shaft or rear wheel bearings )


I think the engine torque, engine rpm used and weight of the NC is NOT the cause of any chain issues.

It is interesting to note that NT650 owners use to modify the drive line witha smaller lighter chain and sprockets ........the theory was less rotating mass.

>I did think about it. I see where you're going with this in terms of shock loads to the final drive >chain, but I think the bicycle analogy is not the best example.

Thanks for pointing that out 670....it was a lousy analogy.

525 Kit Is Now Installed

So at almost 13K miles on the factory chain I dove in last night and did a thorough inspection of the drive system. The chain had 2 links that were stiff but not actually kinked. This is better than when new where I had so many stiff sections I gave up counting. The front sprocket looked new with no hooking and perfect teeth shape. Amazing actually. The rear sprocket is like new which is expected since I have never actually worn out a steel rear sprocket in several 100K of miles of street riding.

I should reiterate that I really do care for my chains with cleaning and lubing as soon as I finish a ride. Every ride. No matter how short. I have not had a chain last less than 45K that I have owned since new. I change them anytime I have to adjust them twice within 5k miles. I adjusted teh NC's chain only twice, both in the first 3K miles which is normal from all chains. I have driven the Tiger 800 for 3 years and not required an adjustment in the last 2+ years.

I have a CB500F in the garage that has the same drive chain so I figured I will keep the NC's chain as a possible spare as I decided to install the new JT 525 kit. Everything bolted up perfectly. The stock front sprocket with the unusually wide center mass is .5 MM narrower than my new 525 replacement but it actually floats a little on the driven shaft. The replacement from JT actually fits a little more snug with maybe a hint of side-to-side movement. The capture bolt torqued down with no drama and I believe it is as good, or even better than the standard sprocket fitment. The rear sprocket was a perfect fit. If I had to guess the counter shaft is so much wider than normal because they either planned/plan to utilize a belt drive (Integra scooter roots maybe?) or they plan to really up the torque of this motor family someday. Either way the contact between the sprocket and teh counter shaft could probably handle a 1,000 HP, it's that wide.

Since I clean and lube my chains so much I am very sensitive to the noise they make as I spin them with the bike on the centerstand. Both the NC and the CB actually made more noise than my bikes that have/had ~30K on them. The new 525 drive chain and sprockets on the NC are like a silent propulsion system and seem unusually smooth. I won't be able to ride the bike until the rain passes but I will report if I have any issues.

I ordered the parts on Amazon directly from JT. I used their new top of the line Z1R chain and scored it for only $75. The entire kit was $135. The sprockets are perfectly round which is not always the case and the chain sure passes the feel test. Amazing how much more stout it felt compared to the original 520 and it looks pretty beefy on the bike. The rear wheel seems to roll as free as ever but the additional weight of the 525 chain, only 0.8 lbs btw, should theoretically impact fuel consumption, unless the 525 chain has less overall friction (doubtful but it sure feels good right now).

So the rigors of testing will begin this weekend with a spirited romp through the mountains. Oh the sacrifices I make.

KEB

Just to point out that the slightly larger size chain, will lose you some already low HP due to extra drag and weight.

DirtFlier said:

[the maintenance required to get that mileage is probably less time than I spend maintaining my shaft drive bike...]

All three of my Honda road bikes prior to this NC had shaft drive. Other than changing the gear oil every two years and greasing the drive/driven splines at each tire change, there was NO maintenance. Now, if you're talking about a BMW that's valid!

Click to expand...

Since I installed 4 rear tires on the ST last year and I changed the rear diff oil I spent more time and certainly used more gear oil on my shaft drive bike than all my chain driven bikes combined. I was probably too precise with my cleaning and lubing of the ST splines but the bike was bought used so I spent extra time cleaning and inspecting everything.

I have shortened my spline lube time considerably but I have been doing a lot of tire and suspension testing on the ST this year and i have put 3K on the ST already with 3 rear tire installs (one was a short 650 mile test). When I play in the mountains I go through tires in track day miles.

KEB

welshintheusa said:

Just to point out that the slightly larger size chain, will lose you some already low HP due to extra drag and weight.

Click to expand...

Now that there is 600 miles on the new chain the rear wheel spins more freely on the centerstand better than it ever did with the stock chain. The 525 chain only weighs 3/4 of a pound more than the stock 520 and that extra weight must exact some toll at the rotational speeds a chain does but after a day of dragging knees in the mountains yesterday I still got just over 65 mpg and the NC hit its usual top speed in my test area.

I will try and keep regular updates and will report back anything unusual but if i end up getting my usual 45 to 50,000 trouble free miles out of this setup then the test will have been worth it to NC owners.

KEB

525 chain in action, it looks tight but I set at spec on the sidestand. There is plenty of free play as I see the usual movement over bumps when The Girl is riding the NC. Be interesting to see how the durability of the JT chain does in comparison to the well know name brands.